Oddball Guests: Citizen D - Crop Circles, It Can't Be People?!

Welcome to a Very Special Episode of The Oddity Shop! In The Shop This Week we have a special guest and Crop Circle Maker under the alias, Citizen D

What happens when you discover that crop circles are made by humans—but the mystery only gets deeper? In this riveting conversation  we're taken behind the veil of one of modern folklore's most enduring enigmas. 

For decades, elaborate patterns appearing overnight in farmlands have sparked theories ranging from alien visitation to earth energies. D reveals what it's actually like to create these magnificent formations under cover of darkness—and the inexplicable phenomena that often accompany their creation. His testimony challenges both the skeptic's dismissal and the believer's extraterrestrial theories.

"When you take UFOs out of it and actually insert humans as just pawns, the mystery becomes a thousand times more interesting than flying saucers landing," D explains. Far from debunking the phenomenon, acknowledging human involvement reveals a startling landscape of synchronicities, time anomalies, and unexplained lights that regularly accompany circle-making.

If you've ever been fascinated by mysterious patterns in fields, prepare for a perspective that will transform how you view not just crop circles, but the relationship between humans, earth energies, and the unexplainable experiences that have accompanied us throughout history.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome to the Oddity Shop
• 1:27 Meet Citizen D: Former Crop Circle Maker
• 9:02 The Evolution of Crop Circles
• 19:57 The Magic in Manmade Circles
• 31:36 Synchronicities and Time Anomalies
• 49:23 Spiritual Intent and Earth Energies
• 1:02:27 Interdimensional Phenomenon Theory
• 1:19:32 Mysterious Forces at Play
• 1:25:05 The Book Project and Final Thoughts

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:03

I want to dance with the mothman at the ID shop, bathed in the moonlight at the ID shop. Creep through the graveyard to the ID shop. The door's always open at the ID shop. Welcome back my little oddballs to the Oddity Shop podcast, the podcast where we tell you creepy, odd, weird, strange and bizarre stories from around the globe.

Speaker 2: 0:45

I am one of the two curators here, Zach, sitting here with the other lovely curator, cara, on this bright early morning. How are you doing?

Speaker 1: 0:53

I'm doing fabulous. It is very early for us, so we're still trying to get in the hang of waking up, but we're going to keep our intro a little bit short. Today, you may know what that means when we do this.

Speaker 2: 1:05

I think I know what that means.

Speaker 1: 1:06

Yes, we've got another guest today, coming straight from the UK, near Stonehenge, I hear. So let's just get into this episode and you'll understand more of why we're keeping this short, and we're also not giving you a real name, so we'll be using an alias today, which is very exciting. We've never done this, so welcome to the Addity Shop, citizen D.

Speaker 2: 1:27

Hey D, how's it going?

Speaker 3: 1:29

Oh cool, I've been really looking forward to this one.

Speaker 1: 1:32

So excited oh yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:33

No, we've definitely been looking forward to it as well. Brilliant, all right. So I know I got to speak to you before, but, cara, I know I've only shared a little bit with you so I kept Kara not totally into what we're talking about, so there's a little bit of surprise on her.

Speaker 2: 1:47

excellent, yes, I know nothing so what we're gonna do, kind of just an icebreaker to get things going. So D we usually start the shop by asking each other a question that's loosely related to our topic for the week, but what we want to start by asking you just to get things going here is do you think we're being visited by aliens from other planets?

Speaker 3: 2:09

um, if we are being visited um, first of all, I'd say that it's alien only in that it's alien to our understanding, and I certainly don't think it's coming from another planet okay, see, and this, this is why we have you, because we go down this rabbit hole of aliens aren't from other planets all the time.

Speaker 2: 2:28

Yeah, but yeah so for our listeners. Dee came to us from a random email that we get quite a few of that. Sometimes we open them, sometimes we read them, and this one, this one, literally hooked us in right away. Way so, uh d, what I'm gonna do real quick and before I let you introduce yourself, is just read the cover from the blurb of a project you have coming out, called it can't be people. Is that okay with you? Absolutely perfect, perfect, all right. So it starts with.

Speaker 2: 2:56

For over 40 years, spectacular patterns have mysteriously appeared overnight in the fields of eng's West Country. Many believe these crop circles to be made by ETs, time travelers, nature, spirits, the earth itself as a sentient being, or secret military testing. It Can't Be People considers the most controversial alternative humans. Everyday, people who feel compelled to create circles are reporting incredible events, synchronicities, time shifts, orbs, ghostly apparitions and visions. In this fascinating book, interviews with these enigmatic artists reveal that once people are at last inserted into the picture, the mystery is far deeper and more exciting than the narrative, than any narrative that excludes them All. Right, dee, we'll turn it over to you. Wow, you want to give a little introduction here?

Speaker 3: 3:56

What do you want to know, right? Okay, yeah, I've been interviewing crop circle makers over the past sort of six to eight years. I'm a former crop circle maker. And the reasons? There's three reasons why I'm not appearing on, appearing on camera today. They're all very innocent and cut and dried. The first is that crop circle making is illegal in the uk. It is not a criminal offense for the police, but it's trespass, criminal damage, vandalism. So even now, because there's no statute of limitation, a farmer could still, if he ties me to a circle, I'm still in trouble 10 years on as a civil suit there. Secondly, because it's such a contentious subject, um, that people make crop circles. I don't really want really the trolling community to find out where I live and could be outside with the pitchforks, as you know the pitchforks, you know the pitchforks and the. You know Absolutely yeah. And thirdly, and this is a nice one, we believe that for as long as the crop circles remain unauthored, as soon as a crop circle is omitted to be man-made, that particular crop circle is sort of unplugged. It's demystified. There's no mystery to it. Even now, you know a crop circle that was made 20 years ago. If people see an image and and think that it's mysterious. It retains its magic. Okay, so, because what we, what we do, is not connected to ego. Uh, we don't say, oh look, we made that one, isn't it fantastic, aren't I brilliant? It's not about that. It's about the image speaking rather than the art rather than the artist speaking. So those are the three reasons why I'm not appearing on camera. That that's really it. Um, I'm a former crop circle maker, as, as we spoke a few weeks ago, zach, you remember what I said. She was that. Um, I started as just a ufologist. I was brought up on john keel, jacques veille, um, uh, jenny randall's, john spencer, all like the really good literature from the from the 60s, 70s and 80s.

Speaker 3: 5:50

I've always had a latent interest in the paranormal and ufology. When I saw, when I saw, close encounters at the age of 11 in the cinema, my little mind was blown. I thought it was a document. I thought it was a documentary because, as a kid, this is the interesting bit. As a kid, when I saw that movie, it was thought it was a great movie. I thought it was a documentary because, as a kid, this is the interesting bit. As a kid, when I saw that movie, it was like it was tapping into some latent, untapped part of my psyche where I thought I'm remembering this rather than I'm seeing this for the first time. So, yeah, um.

Speaker 3: 6:22

So I was very, very interested in the paranormal ufology and in the ufo case books, um, uh, that were that were over here. They used to say, right, here's this year's sightings. You know, they have like gulf breeze in there or whatever. But then they started to put in, uh, images of crop circles and they were single flattenings and their preced precedents were the Australian tully nests where they literally looked like single circles where a flying saucer had birthed and then taken off again. But because the Australian ones were done in grass, our ones were done in crop, they were much more sort of defined because the crop was one or two foot high. So we were starting to see these images of like single circles and they look like a flying saucer had landed and gone off again, or there'd be a single circle and like four little satellite circles around it. That looked like the day of the earth stood still. B movie tropes of the tripods around the UFOs, yeah, and we thought it was Like that typical landing. Yeah, totally. Yeah, all the B-movie stuff. It was really good.

Speaker 3: 7:29

But then so they started to report these. It's like being crop circles, birthed UFOs, and I was fascinated. But then in 1990, we had the first pictograms, which were like the Led Zeppelin cover, which you've probably seen, where these things didn't look like birthed UFOs, they were sort of like door keys or dumbbells and stripes. No UFO looks like that. You know aerodynamically be rubbish as well.

Speaker 3: 8:00

But what had happened was that the connection between UFOs and crop circles had already become so ingrained that the wider public and the community couldn't pull them apart. So suddenly they turned into not oh, they're not birth flying saucers. Now they're messages from our space brothers, and that part of the phenomenon really is clunky for me. I think it's a really clunky transition. I don't think the two things, I don't think the early phenomenon, which I think are real, to be fair. I thought we thought we can't see a lot of us how they were made because the crop was like quite high and it was like you can't board it that way. So we think that the original crop circles are a different phenomenon completely to the Led Zeppelin cover and all the pretty pictures we've seen since. We think they're two completely different things, yeah.

Speaker 3: 8:51

So I became very interested and I went down to Wiltshire because that's the hub it's all happening in Wiltshire around these ancient sites like Stonehenge or the ancient like barrows and tumuline henges and I thought, stuff, it I'm just going to spend. So for the first 10 years I used to drive there and just see the crop circles. We used to get them from Crop Circle Connector. But this is key, guys. If the site said, well, there's 10 crop circles but two were known to be man-made, as a believer you just wouldn't bother. You wouldn't bother going, okay, no.

Speaker 2: 9:29

Okay, hold on, though. I have a question for you. What is Crop Circle Connector Crop?

Speaker 3: 10:44

Circle Connector is like our sort of little that's our nerve center. So it's cropcircleconnectorcom, and every time a new event sort of hits, they give you the coordinates of where the crop circle is, and of course then it's flooded with with people that are within sort of 8-12 hours.

Speaker 2: 11:01

oh, right, yeah, cool, I've never even heard of this. All right, I got a new site to add to my rabbit hole list.

Speaker 3: 11:07

It won't start becoming active until sort of may, june, because that's when the first crop circle is going to be hitting. Okay, long story short, I became fascinated. I spent the first 10 years going to the crop circles. If somebody said that's bad mud, I wouldn't bother. But then I thought, okay, I've got, I'm going to use up all my holiday at work and I'm going to spend six weeks in the nerve center, right in the right in the season, right in crop circle season, yeah, which is like sort of traditionally sort of May to September. I got six to eight prime weeks and I started to hear stories second, third hand normally of crop circle makers that were experiencing really weird shit as they were making crop circles.

Speaker 3: 11:49

Now, at that time I held the crop circle makers in the same disdain as some of your listeners might hold me. Ok, because we thought the mystery was deep enough without these idiots coming in. And the analogy I use is if you can imagine the magician with the balls under the cups, ok, that's, that's already complicated enough. Then you get these idiots adding another 10 cups. Ok, it's a little bit like when you see, like the fake videos. Now, the mystery is deep enough.

Speaker 3: 12:19

So I held these people in disdain. I thought that they were egotists. I thought they were there to deceive us. Yeah, I really hated them. I thought that they were like big heads and they were making like these stories of seeing like uaps and time shifts and dream driven events. It was all just all about me, me, me, look at us, okay. But then I met a couple and I was overheard saying that I didn't care how a crop circle got there. I was more concerned about its effect. And then one day a team said to us look, we think you're aligned, we think you're sort of like we're not holding interviews, but we think you're kind of like the right sort of person. We didn't finish your crop circle last night. We're finishing it tonight. Would you like to come out with us?

Speaker 2: 13:12

How can say no yeah?

Speaker 3: 13:14

yeah, well, you say that, but I didn't say no. But I can tell you there's people that have said that, have said yes, yes, yes. And when you go out I can tell you this, it's pretty boring. All you're seeing is a half a dozen people just milling about, just, yeah, just stamping on wood for four hours. So it's really exciting for 10 minutes and you're going. I'm bored now. So so, yeah, we went out and, um, we finished this crop circle off.

Speaker 3: 13:42

I was a fit soldier in those days. So you're like a storm trip, you're like a pawn. You just they say stomp that you don't know what you're doing. Um, you don't question that, you just do it. And then you don't see what the bigger picture is until the crop circle's down and you see the pictures the next day. So, um, yeah, we got this thing done took about three hours. It was a two-stage event, so the whole thing took six hours over two nights and I saw absolutely nothing and I thought, oh great, what a waste of time. These people are idiots. I can go back to seeing the real crop circles now. What a bunch of wasters get a job. Um, you know all this stuff.

Speaker 3: 14:15

And then, as soon as the crop circle was finished, I looked at the perimeter line and I saw a single like this, this magnesium flare, this flash, like somebody had taken a picture on an old polaroid camera with the bulb, well, and I thought, oh, I thought, oh shit, that's it. We've been, because people are always looking in the fields to see to circle being made man-made or otherwise. So I thought that's it, we've been caught Somebody's taking pictures of us. Now, you know, that's my DBS done. That's, you know, my job's in jeopardy. Now it's busted on the very first one. Busted on the first one, absolutely right. And the team leader was really blasé about it. He wasn't worried.

Speaker 3: 14:58

And then I looked at this thing again. I was watching this point, and this light turned into, turned into four lights, and then six lights and a dozen lights and then 30 lights, and I thought what the hell is this and what it did? It sprinkled itself around the perimeter line of the circle and it was defined. It wasn't just, like you know, rough, it was right round, like the border of the circle we'd made. It went right around the edges. I describe it in my sub stack as the biggest necklace in the world. It was glistening.

Speaker 3: 15:24

And I just said to the team leader what the hell is that? And he said to me look, I've got a feeling that you are attuned to this and this isn't the first one that you'll be involved with. Get used to this. This is, this is the rigor, this is par for the course, it's nothing to worry about. And I said well, what's going on? He said well, it's just them telling us that this crop circle is finished. It's a little round of applause and it's telling us that. It's telling us that if we do anything else to it, we're probably going to mess it up. So stop now.

Speaker 3: 15:55

And he looked up and he said all right, okay, we're going now. We've done our work, you can do yours now. What that means is that for as long as we're in the field, it's ours, but the second that we leave the field, it belongs to the world. It's not ours anymore. Okay? And he said okay, we're going now. Okay, fine, so. And I said who are you talking to? T? And he went that lot upstairs and then he said okay, we're going now. Okay, fine. And I said who are you talking to? T? And he went that lot upstairs and then he said okay, we're going now, bye. And the second he said bye. These lights just blinked off all of them and that. And then I went out the the next night and made another crop circle with the same guy and we saw like this pink uap appear. At the second we did our first stop mark and it was there until we finished and it went pop blink as soon as we finished and at that point I was hooked. That was it for me yeah, what?

Speaker 2: 16:46

what did that? What was that like for you in that first one? Right, those lights all are falling down like the giant necklace. He says you know, thank you. Lights turn off. Like what were you feeling? Were you scared, were you excited?

Speaker 3: 16:57

this is, this is I've done lots of these interviews and I'm sort of delving into what my answers are and there's a couple of things that I haven't realized. When you're actually in the experience, it's not weird. But yeah, I've looked at that and I've really sort of done, really examined myself. Saying that and think just just that is for it not to be strange is strange. Okay.

Speaker 3: 17:21

We think that when you're in this environment there's this kind of glitch where there's this kind of feeling that it's like you're working in a theater. It's very hard to explain, but it's a bit like the os factor, okay, which you know, which I'm pretty sure you're aware of, where people see you know people see your phone. There's a slight glitch, it's tiny, you're not aware of it, but when you're actually in in these situations you don't do your process until afterwards. So two weeks later you go, you're doing your washing up, thinking, oh yeah, that, what the hell? You know what the hell happened two weeks ago. You go, you're doing your washing up thinking oh yeah, what the hell you know what the hell happened two weeks ago.

Speaker 1: 17:59

You know you're doing your shopping and you go hold on a minute.

Speaker 3: 18:01

So the answer is yeah, it's when you're doing it. It's like not weird, it's afterwards.

Speaker 1: 18:07

Yeah, I think that's kind of like when Zach and I go investigating and we get evidence while we're there, we're like not afraid. Or we're like, oh my gosh, this is amazing, we're in it. And then maybe like a week later when we rewatch it and people we show are like, wow, that's really scary, you weren't scared. And then you start to think about it. You're like, ooh, should I have been.

Speaker 3: 18:24

Because I wasn't when I was there. Yeah, it's exactly the same. But at the same time, I'm very wary that we respect the phenomenon for the reasons we'll get into, because I'm really, I really love what Robin Williams said about Skinwalker. He said look, I love it, I really love it, I love the whole thing, but I don't want to bring it home with me that's exactly how I feel, wow, so I guess I have a question.

Speaker 1: 18:49

So you were basically like you set a pawn, you're just told what to do. Stomp on over here, do this yeah like how then? How do you at that point like, how do they come up with the uh? The designs, image. But the designs, yeah, thank you. Or how do you come up with it? Who? Who decides that or like what? Why?

Speaker 3: 19:07

well that. That's part of the reason why my whole thing's called it can't be people. Okay, it's a really good question. First, the first chart series is admin. Um, the crop circle season isn't um that long. It's a really good question. First, the first choice is admin. Um, the crop circle season isn't um that long. It's normally sort of end of april.

Speaker 3: 19:21

We've had our first one now, so the first few crop circles are in this really mucky yellow stuff canola, like the all seed stuff. It's disgusting. The stems are like broomsticks. You can't do much other than basic stuff. Then we get the, the wheat and the barley and that's where the real magic happens, because it's really pliable, it's really easy to work with. But you've only got between May and September tops, and it's finished. So we've got from October till March to do our designs and it's just a question of when you're a kid you've got the spiral grass with the compasses and the set squares. It's just a question of when you're a kid, you've got the spiral graphs with the compasses and the set squares. It's just that what is an inch on the paper is a few feet in the field. It's that simple.

Speaker 3: 20:01

But in answer to your question we normally have. One person will say well, here's a couple of images, which do you like? We can do this one this week, this one next week, one next week. But where it starts to get messy is that um, sometimes the imagery, um will put down a circle and then we'll find out that it's of a particular significance to that particular area or that particular field or that particular day, and then we'll find out that we've had no awareness of it. And then that's what's freaking people out, because people said look what? Look, look at this image in this field. It's directly in a line with this, it's direct and we've just like, so I just plonked it there.

Speaker 3: 20:41

And then afterwards there's significances to the date, the area, historically, something happened five years ago which we've, which we've commemorated without knowing. So it's stuff where we go, where we couldn't possibly have known that, and then you start to think well, who had the idea? Oh, jim had a dream. Oh, okay, and that's when it starts to open up. Wow, and that's when, as I said to Zach when we spoke a few weeks ago, once you take UFOs out, once you take birth UFOs out of it and messages from space brothers out of it, and you actually insert humans into the equation as just just you know pawns, you know just foot soldiers. Then the mystery becomes like massive. It's actually it's a thousand times more interesting than than flying saucers landing, because we think that there is arguably an interaction between either ourselves telepathically talking to each other, or whether there's something else which is at play that we're sort of ignorant of.

Speaker 2: 21:45

So, in other words, it kind of seems like people are just autonomously choosing a random design and then, once it's done, there's a lot of synchronicities to the area, sort of deal.

Speaker 3: 21:56

Yeah and what's also really important is that, um, I've been interviewing crop circle makers for the past six years and I I know a lot of them, because there's a myth that we're all a close-knit community. We're not, but over the years you find out who's done what over the years. We're not a fraternity, it's not a masonic brother, it's not a masonic brotherhood there's no, there's no, there's no.

Speaker 3: 22:17

That's right. It's not a, it's not a masonic brotherhood or anything um, but we do know each other and the. And when I interview, uh, italian crop circle makers and french crop circle makers and people that are um have made um away from like this central hub, in wheelchair I get and I say to them look, I'm, I'm, I'm reporting high strangers, events, they all go, I've got anything, it's just here. And people. And the further I get from like these monolithic sites, the the stories dissipate. You know they become fewer and and you know they become fewer. It's just here, interesting yeah, yeah, wow absolutely.

Speaker 3: 22:58

Yeah, I think nine ninety percent of the crop circles are in, are in wheelchair, I think, is I think that historically ninety percent, I'm pretty sure that's that's the cut, that's the current figure I made here wow, yeah, interesting what?

Speaker 2: 23:11

what do you think it is about that specific geography that is creating the circles that at least have these strange phenomenon or effects afterwards?

Speaker 3: 23:20

that's different from I've got to answer that question, first of all by saying that the first time I drove here to investigate, when I was a believer, as soon as I drove into Wiltshire and as soon as I drove near Avery and Stonehenge and like the real magic, I got this vibe. I got the same vibe that I got when I watched Close Encounters. It was like I'm not here, I'm back. There was this certain vibe in the area where you think it's all familiar and it's all like this is all familiar. And the first time I was in a club circle, even though it was incongruous and it looked like it shouldn't be there, at the same time it looked completely like it should be there. And when I was in there and I had a time slip in there, I thought this all makes sense now.

Speaker 3: 24:05

I mean, I'm not endorsing it, but people say the same thing when they take acid they go. When they take their first acid they go oh, okay, I'm back, it makes sense. But you know, but it's the same, I've never taken that, but um, it's, it's. It's kind of like that thing where you go okay, this all makes sense. Now I've got the answer. And the answer is and then it's just flits away, it's just beyond your grasp. It's like you've kind of got the answer, but, um, we think that the our forebears who made stone circles and you know the big stuff, we think that they were venerating or celebrating something within the land which we've now forgotten because you know, because we're all you know, the technocratic age has kicked us out of this. We think that our ancestors knew far more than we do.

Speaker 2: 24:53

Oh, absolutely.

Speaker 3: 24:54

And we think that we are just kind of like rebooting their work in crop rather than with stones, and it's like jump leads in the area. As soon as you put these crop circles and these images into the land, they like sort of it's like jump leads, they charge the area again, you know, and um, because people have been seeing uaps, ufos, all sorts of weird shit, um in wheelchair for thousands of years, but they didn't call them uaps, they called them nature spirits or or fairy lights or will of the wisps and they'd say, oh you know, away with the fairies is the equivalent now the grey abduction, isn't it?

Speaker 3: 25:39

they're taken away for a couple of days. They come back different. There's time shifts. So if you speak to them, I've never thought about those two things together. Yeah, if you speak to local the locals here and the things I'll be talking to you about if they witness anything strange, it's like everyday life. I've watched farmers watch, watch weird stuff with me in the daytime and they're like, yeah, whatever, this is our life, it's, it's completely natural.

Speaker 1: 26:03

It's completely natural to them I guess have you thought more into that feeling that you get like, oh I'm back. Like have you thought about that? Do you think it's like past life? Do you think it's just like you were meant to do this like? Have you thought like, have you like a deeper thought of, like, why you get that feeling?

Speaker 3: 26:18

it's really interesting because I actually wrote in my substance. I've just written the story um, connected to a circle maker. Give me an account and we did say it feels like a past life, but what we think? But I don't think so. I think that we are experiencing, through the collective consciousness, the recollections of our history, if that makes sense.

Speaker 1: 26:38

Okay, okay.

Speaker 3: 26:39

So I don't think it's literally me in a former incarnation, I think it's a collective remembrance when you talk about, you know, this prevalent idea now where every thought and every concept is actually on this cosmic Google Drive and you can just bring it down, you know. But the area is really important and what's interesting as well is my definition. As I've got deeper and deeper and deeper into this and been a crop circle maker and made dozens. My definition now of a host crop circle is different to what your definition would. Be okay, because historically a hoax crop circle would be anything made by people. Okay, that's what, that's what the narrative is, that, that's what the research is, that's what the community tell you. Okay. But my definition is a fake crop circle is one that is made for ego or, um, it's made to fool people, to laugh at people, deceive people. It's tramped down for a laugh, so so that people can talk about it at dinner parties. It could be art, which is fine, that's. There's no problem with that at all. It could be, um, a commissioned piece for a commercial or a tv ad, that's fine, they are all. They're all hoaxed crop circles. Okay.

Speaker 3: 28:01

A real crop circle is something which is done which which we feel compelled to do, which is normally done with spiritual intent and and it's done with reverence and deference to the area that we place it in. And the first time that we went out to do that one with the magnesium flare, before we started, the team leader did it, did an incantation, and I thought he was like having a laugh with us. But no, no, he says right, okay, before we go into the field, we do it outside the field. He says right, please protect us in our endeavors, please make sure that we are safe, please make sure that this crop circle brings joy to those that encounter it. Afterwards, and I thought it was like some sort of kooky thing. But that's that. That's my definition of a real crop circle.

Speaker 3: 28:47

It's one that's done normally, you're compelled to do it and maybe you don't know why. And, uh, you've got the spiritual. And the other thing I forgot to tell you, kyra, is that most of the people that I know that make spiritual, real crop circles. We all have a latent interest in the paranormal and ufology before we go in. We've all grown up, we've all grown up with this interest and it seems to be. People say, oh, oh, you know, are you saying that you're channeled? No, we're not saying. We're not saying we're channeled. We're not saying we're special, we're not anointed, we're not the chosen ones, we're not better than you, but it just seems to be that, as with ufologists, who are more likely to see a ufo if they're believers it just seems to be that the phenomena latches onto those people that are aligned to it, and we're the people that go out and make these true crop circles that's.

Speaker 2: 29:41

That's so cool okay so if you're not channeling right and but you're having this connection with each other, um, because this is interesting, I, I would. I could see most people who want to break the story on this go the opposite way, go more that ego or really lean into the metaphysical, and you, you almost kind of come with like that sciencey, more skeptical mind. What, what are you thinking that you're tapping into to be able to have this synergy with everyone? Is it still that collective consciousness, or or what would you explain it as well? This should.

Speaker 3: 30:14

My next sentence should tell you that I'm not in the same field as most researchers, and that is that I'm not going to make up an answer. Okay, this is the only thing where I'm not clear. People talk about, oh, it can't be man-made, because the stems are bent, not broken. You know, all that's happening is that it's the daytime the things are being cooked. Now it's light. You know, when you're making a crop circle, the crop's actually quite moist, so it is really easy to bend over.

Speaker 3: 30:46

Then the next day people say, oh, this can't be man-made because it's. Or they say, oh, this has got to be man-made because it's. Or they say, oh, this has got to be man-made. All the stalks are smashed. Yeah, that's because there's been 100 people in there before you, you idiot, you know. But it seems to be that people talk about the literal oh, exploded, elongated nodes, which is just a basic process called phototropism, where once a living stalk is is lodged in the ground, its natural inclination is to reach the sun. Again, it's not mystical, it's not it's. It's not spooky, it's. It's not evidence that it's not man-made, but everyone's looking at these physical traces to say, oh, it can't be a man-made. The stuff that you can't record is the weird shit. It's the synchronicities, it's the dream-based stuff. You can't, you can't examine that with a. You can't examine that in the field. Uh, so we don't know if we are to, if we are connecting with each other through the collective, through the collective consciousness, or if there is something else at play.

Speaker 3: 31:47

Like, look, you know, when john kill talks about, john kill's got this amazing ufology, he's got this amazing analogy that I love. He's really good with analogies. He says imagine, imagine a radio, imagine an old radio dial. Okay, but you haven't got a thin dial, you haven't got a thin needle, you've got a really wide needle. So if you had a thin needle, you're just going to pick up that station, you're going to get that, that lot music. But imagine if you've got a wider needle. You're going to pick up voices from other channels, just faint voices from like newscasts. You're going to think that that's like voices from the spirit world.

Speaker 3: 32:23

If we look at it, you know, in today's terms, we think that there's a possibility that we are all that humans are using the same frequencies and the same radio dial as something else. Okay, so we don't know if we make, if we go and make a crop circle and then find out that someone has already done it, you know, the night before in the same field or in the same cluster of fields. We don't know if it's the collective consciousness and we are unconsciously talking to each other, or if we're being driven by something else, and that is the only part of the mystery that I'm, to this day, not sure on, after two decades research and being an expert by experience. That's the key. You know because I've done it.

Speaker 2: 33:09

Okay. So when you're saying sometimes you show up, you know know two different crews, same fields, going in like the same area, have you ever compared designs and see if you guys both came up with the same design for the same place? Oh yeah, it's happened that's wild like. What are the chances?

Speaker 3: 33:24

what you said, cara, about.

Speaker 3: 33:26

You know, is it weird at the time yeah it's still in the same time frame, it's in the same way, but you get so blasé about it because we used to fight with each other and say, oh, you've done my, you've done my, you've done my, you've done my bird here, I was going to do that. Where'd you get my do? Did I leave my drawing in the pub, or something? And then, and then you go no, of course not.

Speaker 3: 33:46

And then what what happens is you'll get certain themes where, over us, certain season, there'll be these recurring patterns or just recurring shapes within formations, and it's almost like the phenomenon is going like you know, okay, well, if I implant it in four of your heads, one of you will do it, or two. It's like when you get major, when you get major um technological advances, like you know, when john logey baird invented the telly, they say that three other random people in in unrelated parts of the world had the same idea and and and nearly put the patent in, you know, and then, when he did it, they go how do you do it? My idea?

Speaker 3: 34:31

it's like, if it's in, if it's in enough heads, one of you will do it I mean, that makes sense yeah, yeah, one of the I hate to keep using this example for the people that have listened to like a dozen of my my guest spots, but the one that really does it for me is that, um, when I went out to make my first crop circle, but by myself, with my own team, and it takes a long time to do that because for the first few you're just a stomper- you don't know.

Speaker 1: 34:58

you know You're a pawn.

Speaker 3: 35:00

Yeah, yeah. And that's the other thing where people, when researchers, say, oh, you know, this is a man-made, or people can't do this, you know, people can't do this amazing, this amazing pattern, my answer is, if you haven haven't tried and if you haven't actually been in the field and tried yourself, I'm not really going to give you any time, any time really, because, as a crop circle maker said to me, I install boilers for a living, but if you can't take one apart and put it together again, I don't think I'm going to take any advice from you. You know, um, yeah, but um, for the first six or seven, I was like learning the ropes, and this is really important. I can't do those really really complicated ones, but I can sure tell you how they were done. You know, when I, when I saw, when I, when I did my first crop circle, I visited a new one the next day and the scales had fallen from my eyes and no longer was I saying, oh, this can't be people. I was going. Well, I can't do it, but I can sure tell you how it was done because I saw it last night.

Speaker 3: 36:00

Okay, so I went out and I had a team of four. I had two guys from Amsterdam and a guy from from England, and I had this recurring dream for weeks beforehand, where it was an ubi. It was definitely an ubi I was. It was an out-of-body experience. I was swooping over these fields and they were two fields that I didn't recognize, but they always the same two fields, and there was one crop circle in one field and another crop circle in in the field next to it, completely different. And in my dreams I was always flying next to this kid that I went to school with like 30 or 40 years ago, who I've not thought of for four decades, and I'd wake up thinking, oh, it's that cool dream again, by the way. What the hell is that guy doing back in my dream? I've got nothing to do with it.

Speaker 3: 36:46

And then one day strange, I was. I was driving around, wheelchair, arranged to meet some friends, and I took a wrong turn. Now, wrong turn in this subject is different to what it means in most people's realities. Things are in, things are engineered. Um, you think it's a mistake. It's not a mistake.

Speaker 3: 37:05

You make a crop circle, you put a mistake in it that you can't, that you can't fix, so you have to embellish the mistake and then it turns out that mistake is the most important part of the crop circle.

Speaker 3: 37:16

It's all chess pieces and it's like we say it's a game of chess but we're not playing it with the pieces. There's the mistakes, there's, there's wrong turns, there's you know, there's the car breaks down, so you put it in that field instead, and then you realize that that's the field it should have been in all this stuff. And so I took this wrong turn and I found myself in this part of I did this gasp, thinking that's the two fields that, and it's because it was down like this cul-de-sac, it's not, it's not a part of the scenery that you'd normally drive down, okay, and I thought that's, that's, that's my dream. And then I looked to my left and the name of the road that I'd driven down by mistake inverted commas was the name of the road that my school friend used to live in when I used to go and play around his house 40 years ago.

Speaker 2: 38:03

Oh, that's so strange yeah.

Speaker 3: 38:05

And then I thought, okay, okay. So I phoned the team immediately and I phoned my partner and I said, look, okay, I've got this is, this is where we're doing it tonight. But I haven't got time to do both circles. Okay, I've got one for each field in my dream. Which should we do? Team can understand which to do. They said, well, they're both the same sort of ability, wise, they're the same, but one's not more difficult than the next. My partner didn't know and up until walking into the field I was like still couldn't decide. It was really like really stressing me out and in the end I thought, okay, what I'm gonna do, I'll look skywalker, I won't think of anything. Whatever goes down, the first two stop marks will determine what that's going to be. So I got the circle down, fine, everything fine. Next day I got a call from my, from my partner in london and she said to me um, you were busy last night. I said, yeah, I know, we got a really good one down. We got my first crop circle down and she said, no, you didn't. I said, well, we did, because you know I just got to sleep and, uh, because, like it's not really social hours, you don't get up before 11 o'clock and she goes. But you got them both down? I said no, we didn't. And she said, go and look on crop circle connector, all right. So I looked on crop circle connector and the and the the google earth coordinates. The aerial view was my two fields, okay, and there was a strip separating the two fields now from the air. That just looked like a hedge or something, but it was actually this massive hill, okay. So my, my, my first crop circle was down in in in my field. My other crop circle was down in the other field but we couldn't see because they were the barrier of this hill and we didn't know about that team and they didn't know about us. And that's when I thought, okay, there's something going on.

Speaker 3: 39:58

And the thing with the chess thing this is another really weird one. This is because, being a skeptic you know my wife's a skeptic, she's like my anchor. When I get too far into this stuff, she goes no, it's not that, it's just that's not that. You've got to have somebody to pull you back. Yeah, absolutely you must. It's so important because otherwise you see people just vanishing into ufology and they just vanish into it and they don't come back. You know you need an anchor.

Speaker 3: 40:21

But we had this situation where there was, I think, eight or ten of us and we arranged to meet in the pub at eight o'clock. Now, arranged to meet in the pub at eight o'clock, now that doesn't mean to say we get pissed, you know, because there's there's this trope of the two drunk blokes walking over from the pub. We've been played by that trope for the past 40 years, cause some of those early crop circles were attributed to two old guys. So we got to the pub, we said, well, we'll have a pint. We don't start until about we get to the field for 10, because at that time of year it starts to get dark. 10 and we're out by three. So you got five hours, you know. And people say in, the people say the researchers say, but these are formed in seconds. Really, are we there? You know they're not, they're done over five hours. They're done over five hours.

Speaker 3: 41:08

So we were, we met at eight, we were all experienced makers and we we intended to do a um, a crop circle which was a celebration of mother earth, which was venerating the area, this. That's why the ones where we did know that it was significant, it was on purpose. Okay, that was. It was a conscious thing had to be that image, had to be in that field because of the surrounding history and area. Um, and date, the date was really important on that one. Um, so this, we're all in the pub and, uh, we're all just ready to go. Okay, we'll have another pint and we're off. And then one of our team got a text and he went oh shit, I've just forgotten. I was supposed to go out with with b's team tonight. I forgot. And so then we were one down and his mate goes do you know what shit I'm supposed to be on that team as well? I completely forgot. He asked me last week. Oh, my god, I've seen the, I've seen the design.

Speaker 3: 41:59

It's going to be really complicated that they need every pair of hands they've got, so we're down, so we're down by two, okay. And then somebody says well, actually I've got the phone number of, like this tourist, and he tourist and I think he knows we're circle makers and he's gagging to come out, give him a call. So he was there within like 20 minutes because he was on holiday. And then somebody else said you know what? I think it's going to rain. I haven't got a dark overcoat, I've only got a light overcoat, and we can't wear light clothes because they're a beacon. So I'm wanting attention. I've only got a light overcoat and we can't wear light clothes because they're a beacon. So I'm wanted attention. I'm going home. So we're another person down.

Speaker 3: 42:36

And then someone says someone gets called away on a family matter. Oh the boilers, I've got a flood at home, I've got to go. And then the team leader says you know what? There's not enough experience on this team. Call the whole thing off, I'm off, goes, and then. And then like but but slowly, people are being replaced in the team, like this chess game.

Speaker 3: 42:54

So if somebody will walk into the pub and you go, oh god, I work with you. You're the guys from holland. Could you help us out. We really need your help. And then somebody phones up. This literally happened. Oh, somebody phoned up and they go oh, are you supposed to be in birmingham now? I'm down for the night. Get your ass in. We need you, right, we need you now, okay. And then, oh my gosh. The end of the day cut a long story short. The eight people in that team were completely different people to the people that it was supposed to be an hour ago. We didn't know each other, so it was really awkward in the car those car rides are always the worst, yeah, yeah yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: 43:29

So so we're on the way to the format. We're on the way to do the formation. We don't know each other. All of us, we're all strangers to each other in one form or another. And so it was really awkward. And this guy just like passed around a stick of gum and he broke the ice because everyone was really quiet. And he said you know what, if my mum knew what I was doing tonight, she'd be absolutely so pleased, because she's a spiritualist and she's really into this stuff. And I said, well, you know, just bring her down, you know, you know she can see what you've done.

Speaker 3: 43:59

And he went um, I can't, she passed away last year oh and then it was like this chill in the car and then it was like Spartacus and I said my mum passed away last year. And then someone else, my mum passed away last year, my mum passed away last year, whoa, and we got, and then we realized we were making a circle connected to mother earth.

Speaker 2: 44:23

I have goosebumps, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: 44:25

No, my hair's sitting straight up, yeah and then we went, and, and then, and then we went, and then we went to make it. It was an absolute blinding crop circle. It was absolutely magnificent. Oh wow, those are the two events. You can't measure that stuff in a field, okay, but that's where I think the phenomena really is. Okay, and it was personal to us. It doesn't mean anything to the wider world.

Speaker 1: 44:51

Right.

Speaker 3: 44:51

But sometimes you get crop circles and they're supposed to be of significance to one single person. It's not there for the, for millions of people to get a meaning. You know, and we're into this whole religion thing of like one is all, all is one, everything flows. It's just like what Cole Young talks about and Jacques Vallée talks about one is all. So sometimes you get a crop circle which is only relevant to like one person and it's extremely special to them.

Speaker 3: 45:16

And I know I had a Canadian journalist friend and he come over and he said at the end of his trip he'd rented a cottage in Marlborough and his partner said to him what would you like is the biggest present you can have before you before we go home? And he said I'd love this crop circle in my back garden. Okay, and it was a specific design and the next day it was there. Okay, but what really fried my brain about that one is that I found out later that the team had actually had that design in mind and and that field planned a week before that trip was made yeah, that's wild and that's when you think is there some sort of time delineation here?

Speaker 3: 45:58

is there something?

Speaker 2: 46:00

yeah which doesn't, because because the phenomenon doesn't, perhaps doesn't recognize our laws and our physics I think that's one of the things karen and I talk about a lot, especially when we're talking about, like haunted locations. Right, is that time is something that really makes sense to us as living human beings? But I don't think it's. You know, time is just this linear line that you can't go back and forth on and that some of these other creatures, whether it's ghosts or multi-dimensional beings or what we call ufos or anything, they're able to kind of surpass the, the laws, or the, the creation of time that we've placed on ourselves yeah, that's interesting because, um, I took some footage once of like, uh, of a of a ufo over a crop circle, and what was really weird was that this particular crop circle um, I'd already seen it, like, sort of like I've driven past it.

Speaker 3: 46:47

This is when this was, when I was a believer. I found out later that it was that the magnesium flare block, because what happens is that it was the Magnesium Flare bloke. What happens is that it's like Banksy, we've all got our own signatures. So you can look at a crop circle and you think, okay, well, I know 100% who made that, because his speciality is feathering and spikes and crescents, and I know who made that. Or, if you see a bad version, you go okay, well, that's either that's like really drunk, or or the people that he trained his little sort of minions have gone out and formed their own teams and they're just copying his stuff. They're not quite good enough yet.

Speaker 3: 47:20

So, anyway, I drove past this crop circle and something impelled me to, um, get out and take a foot, some footage of it, and I already had loads of pictures of this. So I took a set, a seven second video, and in that seconds, in that seven second video was a uap and so I thought what made me get out of the car? Oh right, but the point was that when it, when it moved, it moved as um. When kenneth arnold said, you know, when kenneth arnold said in the matt ranier sighting, he said it moved like a saucer would if you skipped it over water. And that's how this thing moved. It didn't like flying a straight line, it was jerking.

Speaker 1: 47:59

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 47:59

Yeah, and it's like it pulls the next bit of time towards it. It's really hard to explain, but see, I think it's really interesting that we had the first UFO sighting in 1947, two years after Hiroshima. Kenneth Arnold reported crescent-shaped craft. They weren't flying saucers, they were crescent-shaped craft. It's very, very clear in the literature. But he said it moved as a saucer would if you skip it over water. Why did we start seeing flying saucers when it wasn't flying saucers? It was like we interpret it that way, you know yeah.

Speaker 1: 48:35

So if we're gonna say we went on a major crop circle, right, yeah, what do you? Is it just because I know you kind of said that it sometimes it's just for one singular person?

Speaker 3: 48:45

to see that message. Yeah, yeah, design, yeah it relate to them.

Speaker 1: 48:49

So do we think that crop circles just like ignite energy or ignite like what do you think that they're doing to draw these things to it? Like, I know you kind of touched on it but is, I guess, like do you have a simple?

Speaker 3: 49:03

answer. The first thing to say is that if someone has a magical experience in a crop circle, okay, unfortunately, their paradigms will then restrict them from admitting that there's a possibility that it could be man-made. It seems to be that if they have a really personal experience or something really magical happens, they can't reconcile it. It's like they're in denial, okay, that it could, because I had that experience. It it must be. It must be non-man-made, okay, but we're saying that it's still the second thing that you put people in. They're still magic. Because this is the other elements that I can't explain. But the answer is carer, it's to do with the land, okay, and we believe that.

Speaker 3: 49:48

Um, as I said to a podcaster two weeks ago, when people talk about Stonehenge and the impossibility of that task, okay, that we've shifted those stones from Wales you know the hundreds of tons no one says the most obvious thing why? Why would you dedicate two generations of your life? So the grandfather starts it knowing that his grandchildren are going to it, knowing that he'll never, knowing that his grandchildren are going to finish it, he'll never see. Why dedicate your life to something you're not going to see? It seems to me there's something very, very important in this area and, don't forget, people are seeing uaps in this area without crop circles. I know people. I know people that are so pissed off with the politics and the infighting that they go. I've had enough of them. I'm just going there to see the uaps, okay, and they do night watches. But the answer to your question is we think that we are basically, uh, we're just um, following on the the work of our forebears obviously not as important because we're not carrying rocks, but it's the same tradition and we are.

Speaker 3: 50:55

As I said to Zach, before you came on air, it's almost as if the crop circles and the stone circles before us are like jump leads and they're activating something within the earth. Okay, and that's what we're doing. They're just exacerbating something which is already there and the implantation of a strong image just charges the earth. And, don't forget, this is the strongest concentration of lay lies in europe, if not the world. Okay, I know I was talking to a pagan last week and we had a brilliant chat with this podcast and he said that it's the importance of what our ancestors thought of this land cannot be overemphasized.

Speaker 3: 51:38

It's probably the most important part of the chemical. You know, the chemical solution that's. It's like it's alchemy it has to be here, it has to be that, it has to be that or it doesn't fit together. And the reason, a reason why I'm not on on camera today, is because they stay activated for as long as that circle is not authored. And if I mistakenly connect myself to a circle today, you know, it's not about ego, it's not about me. We think that as long as they remain unauthored, they retain their potency. That's the word that's been used is potency.

Speaker 2: 52:12

It's almost like at that point then they belong to the earth. It doesn't belong to this team or that team.

Speaker 3: 52:17

Well, that is one of our mantras, though, Zach. We say that's our mantra. For as long as we're in that field, it's ours. The second we leave that field, it's not ours anymore. It belongs to the world. That's so cool.

Speaker 2: 52:33

You've mentioned, I think what We've mentioned multidimensional. We've mentioned fairy, kind of mentioned this earth energy or something that the ancestors knew. With your time, literally in the field, have you kind of come to any personal conclusion of what you think the phenomenon is created by, or what are your thoughts?

Speaker 3: 52:48

We had that really nice chat a few weeks ago where I did an audition to be on your show, didn't we? And I know that we're aligned here In that I have studied the UFO problem and I do call it a problem. I've studied this since I was a kid. I've studied this since about 1985, okay, and I actually think that was a really glorious time to be in ufology because it was before the internet. We had no armchair experts. All we had guys. Do you remember? It was lovely, I'm older than you but all we had was the literature. We'd have Flying Saucer Review come out once every month. That was our Bible. We'd have the Mufon Reports. We'd have the Bufura Reports. We'd have, like these really good, this good core, this core group of writers like Jacques Veil, who's the godfather as far as I'm concerned, and we had, like Jenny Randenny, randall's, john kill, his, his concepts were fantastic, so, but they all went from nuts and bolts craft. They went from, you know, the old adamski spaceships. They all end up going down this road, the serious, the serious researchers, where they say, well, there's an interaction at play, isn't there?

Speaker 3: 54:02

Why do people see ufos? If they're aligned? Why are they more likely to see ufos, why? Why do people get that? The owl dreams? But when it's all connected with dreams, synchronicities, and again what I said to you about hiroshima, we think that, um, we are dealing with something which masquerades itself as ET.

Speaker 3: 54:24

Okay, and Jack Valle talks about cultural tracking. So in the 1800s we saw crashed airships and we saw airships in the sky before airships were a thing and then we invented them. Okay, so it just seems to be. Why don't we see contactees or these Nordic long-haired sort of visitors anymore? Why is it? You know, it's like trends and fashions, it's following where we are. So, whereas we now see UAPs, the ancestors in Wiltshire, they saw fairy lights, okay.

Speaker 3: 55:00

So I believe, after decades of research, that this is an interdimensional phenomenon. I don't think it's ct, I think. I think that it's something which is coexisting with us on a plane that we can't see because the needle's too narrow on the, on the radio spectrum, and that makes sense. And I don't think it's a coincidence that this all started in 1947 when what we did to the planet okay, must have, must have had ripple effects to something else coexisting with us. And I think that it masquerades this way in order for us to think it's ct, but it's trying to like keep us in line. But I think it's the same phenomenon with the crop circles. Okay, it's something that's unseen.

Speaker 3: 55:47

I love what jay allen hynek said. He said if we, if the uf pro, if the ufo answer was given to us tomorrow in a pamphlet and it was like a guidebook, we are not in the right place in our evolution where we'd understand it. Okay, it's like nope it. It would be like showing a flat pack ikea instruction manual to a caveman. It doesn't mean. It doesn't mean anything. Hynek and vae are the godfathers of the subject. So my answer to your question is it's not et. I think it's something which is coexisting with us and I get the same sort of vibes in the fields with this, because sometimes we're in the fields, you feel you're being watched and I know that would just give me the heebie-jeebies you do.

Speaker 3: 56:32

I know crop circle makers. Something strange doesn't happen every time. I'm not going to glorify it. You might get a strange event 40% to 50% of the time. The rest is okay and sometimes you'll think, oh, nothing weird happened there. Oh, okay, we'll put that one down to experience. And then you look behind you and there's like orbs in like a figure eight formation, like a scale extract. These orbs are like auditing what you've done, as if they're sort of a compliance team, you know, and if it wasn't for you turning around, you'd have thought, okay, nothing weird happened then. But then you go, what made me turn around? A voice made me turn around. You know so and that it's there all the time. But I think this stuff is here in everyday life, you know, you get that. You get you get a dream of you see somebody in the street and they look like somebody that you went to school with, and then you think, oh, it's not them, it's not them. And then you see them an hour later. You know.

Speaker 1: 57:29

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 57:30

It's Mothman stuff, isn't it yeah?

Speaker 2: 57:34

Yeah, no, it is wild. I mean, kiel says it best, right, it's kind of like the flap phenomenon, where there's so much that I think, at least in pop culture, is seen as okay, that's ufo, that's cryptic, that's this, that's that, where it's all happening together. These things have to be more related than I think the research is.

Speaker 3: 57:50

Yeah, you're right it's because they want it. Black and white, ufology and crop circles. It is not a black and white, it's the gray. Pardon the pun. It's the gray where the fun is. Yeah, it's the. It's the gray where the it is not a black and white phenomenon. We're not ready to see it, it's the gray. That's where the real stuff is, you know, wow.

Speaker 3: 58:11

Of the 40 or 50% where you're having the strange experiences, what would be either one of the most profound or weirdest that you've experienced, that you just you know what's that one that sticks with you, as I said, you, you get to see uips as a matter of course when you're making them, and I know of a pilot, um, who's had to, who's had to remain anonymous, unfortunately, because you know that's not, that's normally how you know. People say that that's how you don't verify stuff. I hate stuff where you can't. Where it's an eyewitness testimony or a trusted official, yeah, means you're making it up, doesn't it? But, um, but this particular case I know this is a genuine case where this um, because obviously we've got a high concentration of military bases in this area. I don't think that's a coincidence. Okay, I think that the military are probably tapping into the same thing that our forebears would happen into every time you see a phantom, a magical area, there's always a bloody military base next to it down here.

Speaker 3: 59:06

Okay, yep, oh, they know yeah, yeah, so he saw this, this pilot saw uh, so they can see what we're doing. So we know that they can see us in the fields. And I know one pilot. He said he said I saw. He said I saw these, these half a dozen people climbing a gate. I thought, oh, youamps, I know what you're doing. But then he saw this light appear above them which was only available to see on his radar. It wasn't visible in the sky, okay, but we see UAPs all the time as a matter of course.

Speaker 3: 59:38

But I think the answer to your question is I hate to be boring, but it's the stuff that we can't measure. It's the sinks in the dreams, the stuff that I can't say to you go and measure that in a field the next day, okay. But we've had. I know people see figures. They do see strange stuff. I try and keep away from the dark stuff because I've had like poltergeist activity at home when I've spoken about it too much at home, when I've spoken about it too much and I don't like to bring that stuff into my life. You know what I said to you before, zach, about Robert Williams. I love Skinwalker. I don't want to share a bed with it.

Speaker 3: 1:00:08

But there have been a couple of instances that I can't explain, and it's not related to synchronicity or dreams or the psyche. We had a situation where I really started to think then okay, there is something going on. Here was when we made a crop circle. There was four of us and it was only supposed to be a social event. We were mates, we'd made like a dozen the previous year and we said like let's meet up next season, we'll have a meal. Let's just put something down afterwards, just as like a little testament to when we were doing them. That's all. It was a little thing. It would be like a little end of our meal, sort of thing.

Speaker 2: 1:00:45

Just a little dessert little crop.

Speaker 3: 1:00:46

Yeah, it was a social event, it was exactly that. So gluten-free. And yeah, it wasn't wheat-free because we were in the wheat, right, I was just going to say that. But you do it so anyway. So we said, let's just do this little thing. And one of the team Muppet that she was she got the tape the wrong way around, so we were measuring in meters rather than feet, so it was three times larger than it should have been. It took us about an hour to work out that we'd seriously messed this thing up.

Speaker 3: 1:01:22

But normally you can modify, because the beauty is for us is that you, the audience, don't know what it's supposed to be in the first place. So it so we can modify. But there was enough of it down where we were in the shit. We could not modify because the main lines were down, okay, and we thought, okay, we're in the shit now.

Speaker 3: 1:01:42

And the thing was the cardinal rule is you never leave a circle finished in view of the road. When we did that two-stage event, you know it was in the middle of nowhere, so it didn't matter, okay. But if, if you leave it unfinished, like with the scaffolding up in the middle of and it's visible for a road. That's a big no-no, because because a paradox we've got is that, um, we've got, we've got to make them look as if they're not man-made, because if they look man-made, the magic's not there. That's the paradox, unfortunately, yeah, yeah, and I said to you before you know that there's 10 to a man-made, you don't go.

Speaker 3: 1:02:17

So, anyway, we were in the shit and it was like two o'clock or something, where we only had another hour before day, before daylight was going to break and we lost the cloak of night and I said we've got to do something. We've got, we can't modify. What the hell are we going to do? And one of the teams said well, I wouldn't give for more time. And we carried on. And I'm not kidding guys, and I can verify this, because one my other team is a non-believer and even she says I can't explain it. We did another hour's worth of work. We were sweating, we were thinking listen, make it look finished, just do what we can. Just do what we can so we got another hour's worth of work done.

Speaker 3: 1:02:54

And then then we got another hour's worth of work done and it was still dark and like we're thinking we're gonna get this done, and I to M I nearly said a name then what time is it? He said it's five past two. I said it's fucking impossible, mate. So we'd got like it was. So we got two, I think we got. In the end it was two and a half hours worth of work done and it was like 10 minutes and I'd buy our watches.

Speaker 3: 1:03:24

And what's funny about it is in the time we were doing it. This is what really bores my brain. Why didn't we look at what we weren't looking at our watches at that time, you know? And also, as somebody pointed out to me recently, up until that point where somebody said what I wouldn't give for more time, the road was busy, there was lots of traffic. After that, nobody, none of us, can remember seeing a vehicle for that two and a half hours. And then we got it done. So it's just the mathematics of that which makes it testament to the fact that it must have been something other.

Speaker 3: 1:03:56

And then what I forgot to tell you was when we started that formation, we had a pink UAP appear on the first stump mark and it went on the last stump mark. It went, just disappeared. And when we got to the end of the field because the second you get to the end of the field, even if the police turn up, they can't tie you to the circle. Even if you're right at the end of it and your car's there, they can't tie you to it. You can say, oh, it was there anyway, it was cars there, they can't tie you to it. You can say, oh, it was there anyway, it was there last night, okay. But we got to the end of this field and when day came, I can only explain it as being like it'd been if you can imagine, a dam with pressure on it, okay, and then the dam is released. It wasn't like this slow, beautiful, natural transition in today. It was like it was like day, you know, and I I told this story to a crop circle maker on friday and, um, he said we had it.

Speaker 3: 1:04:49

He said we had the same thing. He said what happened to us is we said what we wouldn't do for more time, to paraphrase and he said it had already got light. And the second one of us said that because of this their circle wasn't finished either, because they'd bitten off all they could, more than they could chew. The second one of us said that because their circle wasn't finished either because they'd bitten off more than they could chew. The second one of us said oh, come on, it got dark again. He said you saw it go dark again. That is wild.

Speaker 1: 1:05:11

Yeah, you weren't finished. It needed to be done.

Speaker 3: 1:05:15

So what happens is it was really nice of me going out to see the circle makers on Friday because I hadn't seen them for years. And what's really nice is that you say have you got any accounts for me, for my sub stack or for my book? And you can't use them because you've already got them, because you've already been told the same story by five other, by five other circle makers. You know, wow the thing is, because it's um, these are very personal, like that thing with the, with the mother crop circle. Um, you think, well, that's personal to me.

Speaker 3: 1:05:44

When I first started getting the dream, the dream based stuff and the synchronicity stuff, I think, well, that's personal to me. So it's really nice to be vindicated and get the same accounts from other circle makers and you go, it's not just me, we're all getting, or at least those of us that are making real spiritual crop circles. We, we're all getting this, you know, because you speak to other people that do them for art and you do them for other people. They do it for other reasons. They're nice, guys. I've got no reports, nothing I can use.

Speaker 2: 1:06:12

And that's one of our big things too is when we talk about the magic and the world and this, and that the, the intent you put out there and into it totally changes your reality and what you experience. So that's interesting, that it's not just the act of creating the circle, it's also the intent and the thought process behind it it's the same as with ufology, because I had a really nice um.

Speaker 3: 1:06:33

I had a really nice hour with um, the european ufos uh podcast, a few weeks ago and he said that it's even the same with people that don't create. He says people that um go out on cultivated uap watches, you know, and they say, like night watches, they get the same thing. It's just a very act of them being in the mix, you know, and becoming and showing that they're interested. That exacerbates the experience, you know it fascinating.

Speaker 3: 1:07:02

So that's where we are and, like I said, I am getting blowback, but not very much, because I tend to avoid the forums that suffer from confirmation bias. Somebody said to me recently do you do research into Facebook groups? What's the point that's just a crapshoot.

Speaker 3: 1:07:19

It's confirmation bias and if you say there's a human element, you have. I've had people accuse me of being CIA FBI. I'm a government mole. You know they don't want to hear it, okay. So all the blowback that I've had has been from those tiny minorities, but other than that I've had nothing so far.

Speaker 3: 1:07:40

You know, because this is the element of the phenomenon that doesn't sell books because the research community won't tell you it's humans. I mean, most of them know. You know you're not going to go 40 years researching the subject. But the trouble is, what happens is they go so far down the line and they've got this flock of disciples. If they turn and say you, you know, it's magic, but it's humans, they're going to lose their income streams, aren't they? It's, but it's just as soon as you put us in and you realize that we don't think we're special, we're not. As soon as you put us in, the phenomena might not, it might not be the mystery that you want, but it's a bigger mystery than you thought was there I actually think this takes crop circles in a whole way.

Speaker 2: 1:08:24

That is like way more interesting to me than it is.

Speaker 1: 1:08:27

You know messages by ufos.

Speaker 2: 1:08:29

Yeah, I agree, it is, it is yeah, but like you've said multiple times here, right, it's a lot of people don't come forward and say it's personally made, because then you're going to lose people. So d you've been doing a lot of shows, you're, you're reaching out and you're really getting the word out there like what, what's driving your calling now to kind of blow the lid on this and really bring it to the forefront yeah, that a lot, of, a lot of other makers are asking me this.

Speaker 3: 1:08:54

I started doing this in 2018, but I started to get that shit that I spoke to you about before, that I don't like at home, you know. It was like I was getting bad luck I was getting. I was, I was, I was co-authoring with somebody else and after six weeks, he said I'm getting stuff happening at home, I'm, I'm out, you know. So I carried on myself and I got really stuff, really old stuff, and then I stopped doing it. Um, but I revisited it last year because the crop circle phenomenon, as we're sitting here today, is pretty much dead, in that we had our worst season ever.

Speaker 3: 1:09:31

Last year. I think there was eight. Only two were worth looking at, whereas when I was doing it, there was like 60 to 80. So it seems to me the answer to your question is with everything else that's being disclosed. It seems to me the answer to your question is, and you know, with everything else that's being disclosed. It seemed to be the season for it and I just got the vibe that it was safe.

Speaker 3: 1:09:48

Now I could be wrong, because you can't second guess this phenomenon. It could be that there could be 80 this year. Okay, but it's looking like it's looking like it's winding down. But it's almost as if we've spoken to this between ourselves a lot the makers and what we said was because of the infighting and the politics and the follow the money and all the it's like it's given up, you know, and people are now seeing. We're seeing the spirals instead. We're seeing other stuff instead. So that's why I'm doing it now. I just got this vibe to do it, my own planets aligned. Last year I finished another project and I thought what can I do next?

Speaker 2: 1:10:30

and then I just opened my google drive and found my manuscript from six years ago just appeared there, you know, and I thought okay, that's it, that's exactly what I did, carol.

Speaker 3: 1:10:34

Okay, it's time you do you get blasé about it. In the end you don't second guess it, you just don't. You don't see that's weird, you're going okay because, because you've been through it a hundred times, in the end you don't second guess it, you just don't. You don't say that's weird, you just go okay because, because you've been through it a hundred times in the fields and what's happening? When I'm writing this, I'm having random stuff happen to me. I'm getting the same random stuff than what I had in the fields. So it's like it's the same thing, you know, meeting random people getting random stories. It's, you know, it's the same stuff is happening to me writing this than I had 10 years ago when I was making Kind of those things that seem random, but there might be more to it.

Speaker 2: 1:11:08

Hey, yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:11:09

As I said, I think this happens in everyday life. It's the fact that we're connecting it to its something, because we're connecting these seemingly random events to, you know, ufology and crop circles. I think we're just exaggerating. I think it's all there. Anyway, I reckon you could, next week, make a list of things that were strange that happened the previous week, and they probably weren't. They were probably about it'd be about the same amount of weird stuff than you normally get If you were looking at the, you know, consciously looking at the weird stuff.

Speaker 2: 1:11:38

You know, Zach, and I talk about that a lot yeah, the more, the more you start to look for it, the more it all just pops out right, right, yeah, because it's easy to just disregard all those little things.

Speaker 1: 1:11:47

But yeah, like you said, if you were to write them down and look back in a week you'd be like, oh, that actually was way weirder quote-unquote than I thought. But yeah, we talk about that all the time synchronicities and the magic in the world that people just ignore because, like you said, people want black and white. It just is not that simple.

Speaker 3: 1:12:05

I don't know what's going on with the Mandela effect either, but it's like there's a certain shift in the air, isn't there?

Speaker 1: 1:12:11

Absolutely yeah, I agree.

Speaker 3: 1:12:15

I went to Crop Circle Country last week and it was more exaggerated. There there's a sense of theater to the whole thing. It's like it's like it's yeah, it's like it's a set. Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 2: 1:12:26

it's really hard to explain there just seems to be something going on with the way the world is kind of digesting now the uap phenomenon, that type name, and if you, oh, I love that I love it.

Speaker 3: 1:12:39

I love it, I said. But I love it because, like when I, when I was like in my teens, like just you know, researching this stuff, all of my friends are going. You're just in, what are you? You're an idiot, you know. But now I've got those same friends. They're going. Is there something to?

Speaker 2: 1:12:53

this right now. You're the expert. Now I'm not the idiot and yeah, yeah, yeah, and you're going.

Speaker 3: 1:12:59

I'm 40 years in, you wouldn't understand, but there's more acceptance. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, but there's more of an acceptance where they go. You know we used to laugh at you, not laughing. Yeah, there's something to it.

Speaker 3: 1:13:14

I had a strange situation because with the phenomenon it's like it's not something that you can really mess with. And I've got a great story about a circle maker and he was quite evangelical about it. Like we said before, if you haven't got someone to pin you down and anchor you, you can disappear into it and become obsessed with it. And he had a situation where people didn't know he was a circle maker, but they knew that he was obsessed and he was at work one morning in this area and his work I won't area and his work I won't say work mates, because they weren't, they were just acquaintances. They said oh m, one of your big corn drawings has landed in this field and it's behind this barn in such and such a location. And he went oh okay, well, um, I'll go after work and I went, no, no no, you gotta go now, go now.

Speaker 3: 1:14:00

And his boss said, no, you can go now. Okay, it's a bit weird. So, um, he went to this exactly where they said it would be, behind this barn, great east. It was brand new, no one had been in it, because that that's the thing it's. They're like crime scenes, not not just literally, but in that the longer you leave it, you know if you, if you go in the first cafe house, it's pure. You've had right there's. There's been like hundreds of tourists, having been breaking all the stalks, you know, and doing all the stuff where you think I must be man-made. Um, so it's clean, it's pristine, it's beautiful.

Speaker 3: 1:14:31

And he went back to work and they come running after and they go, was it? Was it a productive morning? Yeah, yeah. And he had one of those um old cameras where you see the pictures on the screen. You know this is, this is in the 90s, 2000s, and he's passing around this um screen.

Speaker 3: 1:14:45

He said, yeah, it's exactly where you said it would be, it's really nice. Exactly where you said. And they just went all quiet and he said it was like, as they passed the camera around, he said it was like watching a miserable version of adults pass the parcel. It's just they were all, really, and it turned out that the reason why they said it had to be seen there, we had to leave work there and then, was because they knew, yeah, that with a couple of well-placed phone calls to the research community and to other crop circle makers, they would have told him that there was no circle. So their prank backfired in the most magnificent way. Crazy, because they were saying you've got to go now, because they thought, well, if he leaves it we'll just wind him up and of course he goes back and the crop circle was exactly where they said it would be.

Speaker 2: 1:15:31

That's hilarious, that's incredible. I would have paid to see the look on their faces when that just backfires on them.

Speaker 3: 1:15:38

Well, the phenomenon does have a sense of humor. It does. And I've got one more for you, and this is a corrupt circle maker who lived in Gloucester. I love this one, and he had the same vibe about Wiltshire that I did. You know, this is the first time we got there. It's like I'm home, I'm back. There's something in the air here. This is our ancestors' collective consciousness.

Speaker 3: 1:16:00

And he was in Gloucester and he got. He got a calling, a pull at one in the morning. You must go to Wiltshire. Then he went yeah, I'll go in the morning. No, it's like no. No, he said, it's like, you know, when your cat wants to be fed, he doesn't care what time, it is okay, that's so true though, you'll go, you'll go. So he went down, got to Wiltshire about 90 minutes later. So he got there there about half past two in the morning and he had this little hidey hole that he used to sleep in in his UV. It was like a private little place he used to go to and sleep.

Speaker 3: 1:16:33

So he had his Bluetooth on and the Bluetooth when he got to his favourite road it said turn around when possible. And he thought, because he had the Bluetooth on, that there was a blockage or a flood or a tree falling or something. So it said he went to this destination. He turned around and it said you have reached your destination. And he went no, bloody haven't. And it was like this byway, just like this nowhere, nondescript place. So he set off again and he said I'll go around the other side of the road now, just just in case there's a blockage I can miss it.

Speaker 3: 1:17:04

Starts his journey, turn around where possible, make a U-turn, goes back you have reached your destination, reprogrammed the thing, turned it off, recalibrated it, took him back to this area, took him back to this same spot six times and in the end he said look, geez, it's 3 o'clock in the morning. Now I've had enough of Maccad. He just turned the thing off. He said I'll take a chance. He went to his normal place. Nothing was wrong, no blockage, slept fine, no problem. 8 o'clock the next morning. So he's only had five hours sleep. His mobile phone is rattling off the dashboard.

Speaker 3: 1:17:34

With the Intel there's a new crop circle, obviously you can guess the rest. So he went to this. But yeah, and he said he said that if he'd have got out of the car it was pigeon steps into the field. Okay, and it was a man-made formation. And what we thought was really funny was that a potentially non-human intelligence, through technology, was guiding him to a definite solution where he'd find out that they were man-made it was. It was like that little paradox of like an nhi guiding him to finding out for sure that crop circles were made by people.

Speaker 2: 1:18:18

it's just like that sense of human thing again see that to me that's a so much more interesting phenomenon than it just being made by aliens from other planets.

Speaker 1: 1:18:27

I agree.

Speaker 2: 1:18:28

I'm going to be honest. When I first started reading the email from you, dee, I'm like no, what do you mean? It's all people, and then you know it. Really, I think has put a way more interesting spin on this and the way you think about things.

Speaker 1: 1:18:39

Yeah, I know that we have to wrap up. We could probably stay here for hours. I do just have like one question, because you were kind of saying that you feel like it's maybe like ancestry or like you know. You got to finish off like what our ancestors started right. Have you looked into any of like your ancestry, like, have you found anything like?

Speaker 3: 1:18:58

no, no, because I know, because, firstly, we're not finishing it off, we're extending it. Okay, that's a big one. Secondly, it's not to do with my personal family tree, because I'll say again, we're not anointed, it's not us, it's just. I've got an alignment with that, with that subject, and you attract it. But that makes sense. If you were to say to me, if we look from a collective ancestry, that's a different thing. I don't think it's the individual which is important here, okay, I think it's the, the um, it's the area not connected to. The only thing that I've got going for me is that I'm aligned to it and I've got this latent interest in the paranormal and that's the sort of thing that the, the recruitment drive, you know kind of latches onto it's not about the person, it's just about we're just.

Speaker 3: 1:19:49

If you're up that point of view, we're just tools, that's all we are yeah, yeah wow.

Speaker 2: 1:19:54

So what advice would you give to somebody who's either wanting to get involved in researching crap circles or wants to become a maker themselves? Like, talk to the, the people brand new into the interests out there. What do you have to tell them first?

Speaker 3: 1:20:06

thing I do is just do not look at the traditional research community. They've got a vested interest in in pulling in telling you that human is not involved. If you want to find out about the mechanics, about that, the, the community says, oh you, a human maker would, would bend, would break, not bend, and there wouldn't be these expulsion cavities. My advice to you is don't look at confirmation bias sites. Look at go to the skeptical inquirer, okay, and look at blown those debunked. Look at scientific papers, that the scientific papers that have been rejected. People say it's documented. Okay, I'm going to write down now and say that Elvis eats pizza on the moon. That's a document, that's documented. It means nothing, okay.

Speaker 3: 1:20:52

The thing is these untruths have been repeated and spun for so many decades that they're not even questioned anymore. It's all. You can rip it apart in 30 seconds. You know if you're a botanist or you've got I've got a friend who's a scientist and he was actually one of the people that the BLT consulted when they were talking about looking at variations in crop. You know, in man-made circles and non-man-made circles, the guy wouldn't do blind testing even. Okay, my friend was subject to a gagging order. He couldn't talk about it. He couldn't talk about it for 10 years. But now he's saying it's all bunkum and I can prove it. Yes, it has been. It's been scientifically researched, but it was, but it was rejected by all of them. Okay, so my advice is look at debunking sites and if you really want to know what's going on, I would recommend that you read John Kill literature and Jacques Vallée literature, and that is going to tie you in with this much more than anything else. And look at my Substack as well. Which is it?

Speaker 2: 1:22:02

it can't be people dot sub stack dot com and that that will be down in the show notes. We'll make sure. Thanks, mate.

Speaker 3: 1:22:08

Yeah, every week I publish a new account or I publish an interview.

Speaker 2: 1:22:12

Wow, all right, uh, okay, I I have just one and I hope it's not a super long uh question, but I just have to know this from a total you know not the paranormal side of things, but have you ever had to go on the run after making a circle like?

Speaker 1: 1:22:29

have you ever been?

Speaker 2: 1:22:30

chased out of a field or we did?

Speaker 3: 1:22:32

we did a crop circle and we were just about to get the first and it was going to be like a stealth bomber. That's the really weird thing we were going we were making this stealth shape and we were just about to get the first line down and a military helicopter landed in the circle.

Speaker 2: 1:22:49

Oh no, Nope, I'm out of there.

Speaker 3: 1:22:50

And we said, how did? It was like hovering, it was just about to land. We thought chup chup, chup chup. I thought, oh, it's great, it's another pink UAP. I'm going to get a download from Philip Craig Dick. And then I heard the rotors and, um, my friend said hey. My friend said they must have seen the from the engine, from their, from their um camera. And we were. We ran out so quickly that I think we left the boards there and had to collect the kit the next day.

Speaker 2: 1:23:22

Oh, wow.

Speaker 1: 1:23:22

Wow Okay, what a close call.

Speaker 2: 1:23:24

Running from the military. I thought maybe the cops or something like that Cops, yeah, nope, nope.

Speaker 1: 1:23:28

That's kind of badass.

Speaker 3: 1:23:30

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:23:31

Wow, all right, dee. Yeah, no, we could sit here and listen to your stories for literal hours. This stuff is so up our alley. Unfortunately, with it being an early recording, we still have to go to work today oh yeah, sorry guys all right, well we'll, we'll survive. At least we started the day with some like perfect weirdness here yeah, I love this that's fantastic.

Speaker 3: 1:23:54

Thank you so much, guys, and obviously when this goes up, I'll I'll send some traffic back to you, okay, thank you fantastic and then we'll make sure, like you, we'll link the sub stack.

Speaker 2: 1:24:03

Is there anything you want to share with anyone else on how to find you, or any last words you want to leave them with?

Speaker 3: 1:24:08

No, it's all there and it's free to subscribe. I don't want any money. You can just. It's just that sub stack, that's it.

Speaker 1: 1:24:15

Awesome. So we usually ask our listeners what emoji to leave after listening to the episode. So what emoji would you say fits this conversation for you? Oh, I was thinking there's a little wheat emoji, like a piece of wheat. I was thinking that, but I don't know if you have an emoji that's your favorite.

Speaker 3: 1:24:34

I'd probably put a sun.

Speaker 1: 1:24:36

Okay, Love it. I like that Happy Everybody leave a sun.

Speaker 2: 1:24:41

That's how we know people make it to the end if they leave us the sun. We know, we know. All right, I think with that we can start getting this uh oddity shop closed up for the day. Carol, you want to take it away?

Speaker 1: 1:24:50

we got work to do so. Thank you so much. I hope you love and appreciate this conversation and hopefully we can have you back and get more insight, because we could be here forever absolutely right but with that, we love and appreciate you all and the most important thing you can do for us is to creeper reel your little oddballs.

Speaker 2: 1:25:05

Goodbye, bye. You got to throw a bye in there, dean, bye, thank you, perfect. Thank you, the.