Oddity Shop
This podcast examines the oddities of the world...Cryptids to Conspiracies, Cults to Curiosities, Myths to Mysteries, and so much more! Stop by the shop, where the bizarre is always on sale... Each week your curators, Kara Perakovic and Zach Palmer will be opening the shop and sharing stories with you.
Oddity Shop
Lizzie Borden: Unsolved Murders and A Family Curse?
Welcome To The Oddity Shop, Where The Bizarre is Always on Sale. This week, your curator Zach is finally covering the case of Lizzie Borden
The infamous Lizzie Borden axe murders stand as one of America's most enduring unsolved crimes—a bloody double homicide that shocked the nation and continues to fascinate more than a century later. We dissect the gruesome events of August 4, 1892, when Andrew Borden and his second wife Abby were brutally slain in their Fall River, Massachusetts home.
Delving into the complex family dynamics, we examine how Andrew's frugal nature and his daughters' resentment toward their stepmother created a household filled with tension
But the story doesn't end with the Murders. The Borden house has become notorious as one of America's most haunted locations, where paranormal investigators regularly document disembodied voices, phantom footsteps, and objects moving on their own.
Who was the killer? Was Lizzie indeed responsible but influenced by supernatural forces? Listen as we weigh the evidence both forensic and paranormal, and decide for yourself what really happened at 92 Second Street.
Refs:
- https://ghostwalks.com/articles/lizzie-borden-house-ghost-stories
- https://www.novelsuspects.com/excerpts/the-lizzie-borden-house/
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lizzie_Borden
- https://www.britannica.com/biography/Lizzie-Borden-American-murder-suspect
- https://lizzie-borden.com/
- https://www.reddit.com/r/Ghosts/comments/oxy2j2/creepy_experience_at_the_lizzie_borden_house/
- https://www.reddit.com/r/ParanormalEncounters/comments/18rw9tj/my_time_investigating_the_lizzie_borden_axe/
- The Curse Of Lizzie Borden SHOCK DOC on Discovery+
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I want to dance with the Malt Men At the IA shop, Baked in the moonlight At the IA shop. Creep through the graveyard To the IA shop. The door's always open At the IA shop. Welcome back to the Oddity Shop, you oddballs.
Speaker 2:I'm your curator Kara, with your curator Zachary, and this is the podcast where we tell you creepy, odd, weird, strange, bizarre stories from around the globe, or flat earth, depending on what you believe. How are you doing today? Wait first of all before. How are you doing flat earther or round earther?
Speaker 1:round earther perfect.
Speaker 2:How are you doing today?
Speaker 1:I'm doing fabulous. How are you doing?
Speaker 2:I'm so glad I'm doing okay. I am uh, I'm just glad I haven't fallen off the edge of this planet yet. You know, um I just for flat earthers. What do you think they think like you just fall off the edge I don't think they think nah, just kidding, but nah are we though no, okay so what I need help.
Speaker 2:Okay, I am so far back into my my old addiction of runescape. I have to quit. I have to quit. You were gonna say like I would rather be addicted to heroin or back on cigarettes. I don't know what it is to be addicted to heroin.
Speaker 1:You just made it sound like it was one of your no no, no, like I.
Speaker 2:I don't know what it is. Did you used to be addicted to heroin? You just made it sound like it was one of your. No, no, no, like I don't know what it is about this game. Like you know me, I'll play a game for like two months, burn out on it and not touch video games for like six months. I can't stop this stupid nostalgic game from my past.
Speaker 1:So, for those of you that maybe don't know, zach and I we actually haven't done it in a while, but the other I don't even know I was having a mental fucking breakdown, and so Zach and I needed to do a FaceTime hangout. So we'll do FaceTime hangouts, is my point of this. And so he's doing a FaceTime hangout, but he's not facing me, he's facing his computer.
Speaker 2:I was escaping no XP waste baby.
Speaker 1:Playing a game. Oh my God, was escaping no xp waste baby playing a game. Oh my god. Um, okay, so the saturday. I don't even know what day is or day is today.
Speaker 2:Oh, when's that ended? Why?
Speaker 1:yeah, so I guess it doesn't really matter. But the other saturday I think it was just last saturday yeah, last saturday, me and aaron head off and I was kind of looking for stuff that I could go do for, like a Patreon video or whatever. I found a gem, zach, and it is five minutes from my house and I don't know how I've lived here this long and didn't know this was here, and this is the weirdest thing. I just I don't know. This is so crazy to me.
Speaker 1:So I'm looking up, I'm like, oh, I kind of want to go to an oddity shop, though, because we didn't really talk about last video, but I painted my wall black and it's going to be like a gallery wall, so I have some stuff for it, but I need, you know, some more stuff. So I was going to oh, my know about this. How is there an oddity shop in grim blink? Why is there? Cute as fuck, you're gonna die. I didn't buy anything because me and aaron went and I was like, are you sure you actually want to go and do this with me?
Speaker 1:he was freaked out. He was a trooper, he was, he was a trooper, he very much was a trooper. But we get halfway there and aaron's like oh, we should have printed out your flyers somewhere for the event. I said wow, you are so smart, sweetheart, except for we're about pulling into this place.
Speaker 2:You can always go back.
Speaker 1:I could, but they're only open on Saturdays and Sundays, oh weird. Anyway, it's so cute and it's a house. It's an old house, it's like a hundred year old house, and so it's all done. I took videos for Patreon. It's. They have some of the coolest fucking shit there. I could have left with everything. And then they have um, so it's called oddballs antiques, and then they have like one of the side rooms they kind of rent out. So one of the side rooms was just like this artist and it's uh called paradox art. So we follow both of them on our Instagram now, if anybody wants to check them out, but yeah it was just so cool.
Speaker 1:And then so aaron was like do you think it's haunted in here? And I was like honey, either the house is haunted or one of these objects is so I asked the lady I was like he wants to know how haunted it is here.
Speaker 1:And she just starts laughing. She's like well, and then the girl, like in the little art room. She's like yeah, there's definitely a man here and she's like a little boy, and they're both like nothing, like malicious or whatever. And so I asked him do you think it's from the house or from one of these objects? And they're like it's definitely the house.
Speaker 2:Oh, interesting, I would have thought the other.
Speaker 1:That's what I would have thought, but no. So now I'm like me.
Speaker 2:I should look up the history of that house, if I can, because so, speaking though, of your gallery wall getting things for that and haunted objects, jesus Christ, I finally got notification that my chairs are on their way. You haven't told them. No, I bought some. I was out in Arizona for a work trip and Karen and I have been talking about refreshing our offices a little bit and I've been looking for these like perfectly just creepy old chair, and I found two of them and they are beautiful, so perfect but very, very creepy immaculate old carved cherubs on the handles, perfect pricing.
Speaker 2:I cannot wait for them to be here. They are in the winnebago on their way to michigan.
Speaker 1:A cherub, because it almost looks more of like. She looks more of like a little goddess or something to me, so is that what it's considered?
Speaker 2:I don't know I assume chera, because what you didn't see from the pictures is that on the side it is carved wings, I think it's a fairy it could be. I don't know, I'm gonna. I can't wait for them to get here so I can like get into the maker's mark and really research them. But yeah, I'm about 80, certain they are um rj horners yeah, you're telling me, you did so much research.
Speaker 1:What did your mom say?
Speaker 2:Oh, she's like pumped she goes. Make sure, before you bring them in your house, that you spray them with sage and wipe them down with Florida water. Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1:Dang, you were saying that and it made me think of something.
Speaker 2:Oh shit, better think quick Cheers, because it's almost time to open the shop up.
Speaker 1:All right. Well, maybe it'll come back to me.
Speaker 2:Okay, maybe it will come back to you?
Speaker 1:Oh, I know what it was it came back to you In a couple of weeks Well, maybe, yeah, in a couple of weeks you will see this vlog that Zachary made for you, which is great, but there's something in there that he didn't fucking buy for me and I'm so upset about it. I'm not going to say what it is, because I don't want to ruin, don't worry.
Speaker 2:I added my commentary on this. Why did you not bring?
Speaker 1:this home for me.
Speaker 2:Oh, I have a feeling. I know exactly what it is too.
Speaker 1:Okay, now you can open up the shop.
Speaker 2:Okay. So I have a question for you. Of course you do. Okay, did you ever play jump rope as a kid? Like not just jumping by yourself, but the one where, like one person whole, or like two people one hold each end?
Speaker 1:and the person in the middle jumps yeah, what was that thing in elementary school that you had to do where you had to jump for like the longest streak to raise money? For what?
Speaker 2:yeah, it was the american heart association for jump. It was like a heart health thing jump start your, your heart.
Speaker 1:It's something like that I do know.
Speaker 2:I remember that because I was always like the worst at it, and it was, I hated it. Ok, anyways, though, do you remember the rhymes that would go along with it?
Speaker 1:Why can I only think about Ring Around the Rosie?
Speaker 2:That one kind of works there was, like the Cinderella dressed in yellow.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, my favorite is the Miss Mary Mac. Are we going into? Are you going to tell me about all these fucked up stories? No Songs, ok, no.
Speaker 2:But I like the Miss Mary Mac ones because they were always a little bit like on the verge of being inappropriate.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:OK, so we're going to stay with the rhymes for like one second. I'm going to read you one. Okay, that is going to make you. So we're not talking about many of them, we're talking about one specific one. This one, though, is full of mystery, murder and hauntings. Are you ready for the rhyme?
Speaker 1:No, I'm really trying to figure out where we're going with this.
Speaker 2:It'll take you two seconds once I start saying it. Do you want me to give you a couple more seconds to guess? Well, no, okay. Lizzie Borden took an axe, gave her mother 40 whacks. When she saw what she had done, she gave her father 41. Lizzie Borden got away and for her crimes she did not pay. I think you probably know where this is going now.
Speaker 1:I do, but okay.
Speaker 2:No, go on, Get it out first, because this is going to be a long one.
Speaker 1:No, you had just texted me yesterday. Something in the true crime world had come to light and you want to make sure I wasn't doing the same episode and I don't know what Perfect that will be two weeks from today, because I had already written this one.
Speaker 2:I'm talking about the one that I'm I'm writing right now. So that is you're thinking. So I texted, carol, something to make sure we weren't doing the same, because in two weeks teaser, I've got a big, big, big big oh, you can edit that out, old, old.
Speaker 1:This is why my brain is like no, no, we're good, we're talking about.
Speaker 2:So? August 4th 1982? Nope, august 4th 1982. Nope, august 4th 1892. Holy shit, that was tough. Around 1110 am, a woman named Lizzie Borden stands in the living room of 92 Second Street in Fall River, massachusetts. It is then according to her that she discovers a bloody sight and immediately yells for their live-in maid bridget, shouting come quick, father's dead, somebody came in and killed him. Bridget comes down the stairs. She finds lizzie borden standing in the room where her father had been recently murdered while he was napping on the couch. The site insanely gruesome. A family doctor and police are called, and that's when they discover something truly horrible had taken place, not only to lizzie's father, andrew borden, but also her stepmother, abby borden as well okay all right.
Speaker 2:So you know me. We're going backwards now. Andrew borden. He is born 1822, of english and welsh descent. He grew up super, super poor, um, but he eventually becomes like a pretty, pretty wealthy guy. He takes a wife named sarah morse, you know, obviously eventually borden, and he starts to get into like property development and becomes a bank president and does furniture sales, like this guy just kind of does a little bit of everything yeah, he dabbled in a lot um, but he becomes really really financially well off.
Speaker 2:But because of his upbringing he was always like really frugal and just stingy, stingy and and kind of like. Um, he was never described as mean, but just grumpy and unfriendly. So he's not like outwardly nasty, but he's just not like an approachable guy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's just not like you wouldn't. Yeah, he's just not like kind, but he's not maybe mean.
Speaker 2:Right, like he's not going to call you an asshole to your face, but he's going to stare at you, yeah. However, though, him and Sarah build a comfortable life together. They buy a fairly nice home in Fall River, massachusetts. In this home that Sarah gives birth to two children, first Emma and then Lizzie. So fairly normal upbringing at first, but when Emma is 12 and Lizzie is just three years old, they lose their mother, sarah, unfortunately to what was listed as uterine congestion. I guess this is just like an old-timey way of saying something with the uterus.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they just don't know Right Likely in this case they think it was either cancer or an ectopic pregnancy. Unfortunately, she was only 39 years old when she passed away, which is just like. That's so sad, although I feel like for 1892, that would have put her at 27, when she had her first kid, which feels rather old for the time that does feel really old. Beside that point, though it's sad, we're gonna move on from that it's only gonna get more sad.
Speaker 2:The girls, though they had a like pretty normal upbringing. They were involved in the church, especially Lizzie, so she was involved in a ton of church activities, teaching the Sunday school businesses related to church. So they also kind of grew up having this love-hate relationship with their father. So, like I said, he was not mean, he just wasn't kind and he was very well off but very stingy.
Speaker 1:I feel like everybody knows somebody that has that type of friend, that has like a parent that's just like not a loving parent. They're not a bad parent, they provide, but they're just not a loving, nurturing parent.
Speaker 2:So I think that was kind of his and he just made some like really weird decisions. So, unlike the cheap part, that just doesn't make sense. So they live in like a really nice, really beautiful home, but he skipped out on putting indoor plumbing on, which was even quite prevalent on like less valuable homes at the time no, wasn't this home, though.
Speaker 1:As much as it was really nice, it was almost still like a very like. Poor is not the right word, but he definitely could have got a way bigger, more extravagant home I mean it's pretty large right there's three floors but like, yeah, he could have afforded a much better home and it had no bells and whistles, no, anything like that.
Speaker 2:What also really didn't help the relationship with the father and the kids is that just three years after the uh, lizzie and emma's mom passed, he takes a new wife, uh abby gray, who becomes abby borden. Emma and lizzie really feel like she married their father for his money well, they probably feel like it's pretty quick too, like you don't it was quick and then they even got married really quickly and she didn't come from much but that was kind of common around.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Like you kind of married quickly because you almost need somebody to take over the home right, and that's pretty much exactly why he marries her right is so that she would take care of the home. However, uh, miss abby, ain't about that life. So it said like together they turned the home into a loveless place that caused the girls to feel neglected. So it kind of seemed like they were just kind of doing their own thing. You know newlyweds she's kind of. I. I think she was marrying him, but she wasn't ready to be a stepmom.
Speaker 1:Yeah, which unfortunately, I think that that type of shit happens a lot oh yeah. Even now.
Speaker 2:So then too, of course, with her. You know, not wanting to take care of the home, they had to hire a live-in nanny. So her name is Bridget Sullivan, an Irish immigrant who's there to basically keep the house Throughout the years. The five live in the same house, right? So Abby and Andrew, then we have the two girls and then Bridget, and the tensions are always kind of like, like I said, it goes love-hate, it goes high, low. Emma and Lizzie really feel like Dad's way too tight with the money, but he has no problems giving Abby and her family some really lavish gifts, even giving some of them homes. Okay, yeah, that's crazy, which is especially egregious when his two now adult children living in their 30s still live with him. I don't know, sometimes they get along, other times not at all.
Speaker 1:Which, though, that was also common too, though for everyone to continuously live with each other until you got married off.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I couldn't figure out why, like both Emma and Abby or not Abby Lizzie, into their 30s, had not married. There's some weird dynamics going on.
Speaker 1:Why are you into your 30s and not married?
Speaker 2:Okay, well, that's just because nobody's good enough.
Speaker 1:Well then, there you go. But in the 1800s I would have been married off by now for sure, okay, so, anyway.
Speaker 2:so the girls do get a small win from their dad and they demand that he gives them one of his rental properties, which he sells them for a dollar.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Now I couldn't really figure out, like I know they volunteered for the church and did all these things, but I couldn't figure out if they worked. I don't think they did. No, so I don't know why and this is totally conjecture, but this whole thing gives me like kardashian spinoffs, like where chloe and courtney just like live in houses in random city paid for by their parents so they could just like go have adventures, yes, exactly, okay. Again, I have no basis for that, but like that's just how you're feeling your vibes?
Speaker 2:yeah they do move into their own place. Um, but a few weeks before where this story started, on august 4th 1892, the girls actually sell the property back to their father and move in with him. Do you know how much? They sold it back to him? For two dollars, five thousand, okay. So it's just, I don't it's. They seem to really base their relationship off money. Ok, so the live and made those says that, like the girls hardly ate meals with their father and that things like the tensions are just getting really high.
Speaker 2:So again to a couple months before August and May. Andrew, according to Bridget, had killed a bunch of pigeons that were in the barn, ok, with a hatchet. Andrew, according to Bridget, had killed a bunch of pigeons that were in the barn, okay, with a hatchet. Okay, believing that they were attracting local youth to come hunt them. Well, this was kind of like a final straw for Miss Lizzie, because she had taken a liking to the birds, made a roost for them and she was really upset about this. That is very upsetting. So that's May. By July nothing had been resolved and a giant argument happened.
Speaker 1:Do you know why the girls moved back? Wasn't it something they weren't doing? I feel like I could be making this up, but they just weren't equipped to take care of themselves by themselves in the house, something like that, it kind of seems like.
Speaker 2:I think they wanted independence, but I think at the same time, they were also really spoiled while feeling like they were spoiled OK yeah.
Speaker 2:So anyways, like, yeah, now this family arguments going on through July and that prompts the sisters to take an extended vacation to New Bedford. Then they return home just a couple of days before these upcoming murders. Ok, home just a couple days before these upcoming murders, okay, now, at the same time that they come home, john morse, who's the brother of the late sarah borden. He's also coming to stay at the home for a few days to discuss business with andrew. Okay, important to note, he's a butcher by trade, but he also came to speak with andrew. Some property, okay, while they don't eat together, they all eat the same food and they get super, super sick. And now they are all stuck in the house together, except for Emma. Emma was likely with a male suitor at the time. Okay, john, andrew, bridget, abby and Lizzie all super sick, all locked in a house together, when they're all not getting along and it sounds like everything with John Morse and Andrew isn't going so hot Ugh.
Speaker 1:Sounds like a nightmare.
Speaker 2:Oh, total nightmare fuel. Just the tensions running in this house. You probably felt like you could cut it with a knife Mm, mm-mm-mm Right now. How are you feeling about the tension Now? You know we're going into the day of the murder. I know you know that, but like, do you have any suspects who are sticking out to you Anything? What are your thoughts?
Speaker 1:You guys are all going to be so mad at me. I really don't have any thoughts on this case. I mean, I have a lot, but I don't know why I really cannot tell you this. I don't know why, but this case makes me very sad in so many ways. I have no connection to it in any way, I don't. I don't know why, but I just some. For whatever reason, I feel like this case is not my business.
Speaker 2:OK, that's that's fair, because it is one of those ones that is just like it could be anyone.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I just feel like, and I don't know why, because I don't feel like that with a lot of cases, but this case has always stuck with me since the stupid little school rhyme that I just feel like there's something about it that we don't know. It's not our place, that we don't know it's not our place. I don't know. I don't know how to explain it.
Speaker 2:Perfect. So do you want to jump back into it, since it's not your place? But I'm still going to tell you all the gruesome details. Sure, cool. So this brings us back to the morning of August 4th. All right, but, like I said, emma's not home. But we do know john was in the house, andrew, abby, bridget and lizzie. So between the hours of six and seven, andrew and abby wake up, bridget starts to clean the house and john morse. He has breakfast and then he leaves to visit relatives where he's buying a pair of oxes.
Speaker 2:Okay, after about seven o'clock, before eight, andrew and abby complain of feeling unwell. They're still kind of suffering from the food poisoning. Breakfast is served, they start to eat, but lizzie apparently refuses to eat breakfast this morning. Okay, between eight and nine, andrew leaves for his usual morning walk. Bridget is ordered by abby to the windows outside, despite the fact that there is like intense summer heat, and Lizzie is either upstairs inside doing God only knows what or, as she claims, she was out in the barn looking for fishing sinkers. Ok, so that takes us right about to nine o'clock. Okay, so nine o'clock, abby borden goes upstairs to the guest bedroom to make the bed, which is usually bridget's job, but with bridget working outside, she uh takes care of it.
Speaker 2:And then at about 10 45, the next thing we know, because bridget saw abby go upstairs, right but, we have no idea what happens between 9 30 and 10 45 ish, but um, between 10, 30 and 10 45. Andrew returns home from his walk and he tries to get in the front door but it's locked and even with his key he can't get it to budge. Bridget comes and lets him in because she had come in from the intense heat to go take a little rest. Well, yeah, and as she's coming to the door, she notes that she heard Lizzie laughing from the top of the stairs. Okay, which contradicts the claim that Lizzie was out in the barn.
Speaker 2:So she lets in Andrew. She's still really tired from the heat. So she goes up to her third level bedroom to go take a nap. Andrew also feeling a little wiped out, still sick, he lays down on the sitting room sofa to rest as well. Okay, that's till about between 10 45 and 11 10 and, as we said earlier, 11 10 is where 32 year old lizzie discovers somebody has entered the house, murdered her father, and she yells for bridget. Okay, the first to arrive unseen are two neighbors, mrs churchill and the family doctor. The family doctor actually lived across the street, which is super convenient, yeah.
Speaker 2:And they come in and discover the mess that andrew had become yeah then go upstairs to discover that in the guest bedroom is the body of abby borden, also brutally murdered, and the police are alerted right away. So the police come in, they start their investigation and they determine between 9 and 9 30 that abby was facing the bed, possibly making it, when she was struck from behind with a hatchet. She then fell face down between the bed and the dresser, where she is struck a total of 19 times mostly to the back of her head.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the force literally just crushes her skull. She has exposed bone and brain everywhere. It's horrifying. And there's a lot of dried blood which suggests she had been dead for quite some time, right Before Andrew was murdered, because when the police arrive her blood is dried. His is still wet. Ok, that's how we. We placed that murder at about nine. Then we know 1045 is when Andrew came home. He was asleep by about 11. This time the killer attacks from above, delivering 10 or 11 blows to his face and head. One literally like clean splits his eye. That's crazy. Um, his nose completely severed. I mean, his face was so mutilated that it was just unrecognizable yeah you.
Speaker 1:You wouldn't even be able to tell who he was if it wasn't in his own home on his fucking couch absolutely like we said earlier to abby dry.
Speaker 2:He is still actively bleeding, so we know that there was at least some time. So the murderer had to have been in the home at the same time that Bridget lets Andrew back in, right, and then she goes upstairs to sleep. Now Lizzie, remember, said she was out in the barn to the police, but Bridget also says she hears her laughing at the top of the stairs. Okay, so some other details that came about from the investigation. Murder weapon is believed to be a hatchet and they are fairly certain they found it in the basement with the handle broken off.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, now there's two hatchets in the basement, one that's really old, old and dirty, this broken one that was kind of made to look old and dirty. Whoever the killer was, they showed that they had extreme strength because they nearly decapitated andrew and crushed abby's skull. Based on where the attack started, they think that andrew seemed to be more personal because his face was specifically targeted, and then neither of them fought back, showing that it was an ambush. Okay, do you have a thought?
Speaker 1:No, okay, I really don't. I mean I like I can picture this because I've thoroughly watched so much on this and like listen to so much, so I can like picture it. I hope everyone else kind of can oh yeah. To me it's kind of like this is a really old house, though, and you can't quietly travel through this home, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2:Right, the weird thing is there's so many people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but the fact that she thought she heard Lizzie upstairs laughing for her to then just like get down the stair, like, like, so she's at the door no, I know the stairs behind her when this happens.
Speaker 1:It's not a great distance no, no, but what I'm saying is the house. This is a older home even then, like it's loud, it's not meant. It's not built like homes today, right, like where everything is quiet. So for her to say that she was at the top of the stairs, then I get it, but then where did she go? You would have like heard her yeah, I, I don't know.
Speaker 2:No, that's. The thing is, though, is like nobody's stories make sense because john morse didn't come back with oxes bridget's doesn't make sense because, like the other thing too is, I can't find anything in her story from when she was out cleaning windows to when she came inside.
Speaker 1:Well, that's what I'm saying, because then it's like even if you were cleaning windows again, these homes are not built like ours you can hear everything. So if she was outside cleaning windows, I would think even on the second floor you would hear somebody being brutally murdered, like with the hatchet, like even if they weren't screaming or anything. I think you'd hear like some commotion, right, but then again, how do you not hear that commotion?
Speaker 2:on the second floor if you're laying on the couch on the first floor. Well, that's. The thing is, she was dead before he walked back in the house.
Speaker 1:Oh, that makes sense. Yeah, I know, that makes sense.
Speaker 2:So the police do start to, you know, interview everybody, collect all the evidence. They immediately suspect lizzie as the only possible attacker because while everyone else's stories stayed the same, hers changes multiple times about where she was, what she was doing. She at one point said that she like thought abby was out with a friend and she left a note stating she was gone, but like never was able to produce a note. A lot of her stuff doesn't make sense. And they also noted that her demeanor was way too put together for somebody who just discovered their father brutally murdered.
Speaker 2:Okay, the night after gets even weirder lizzie, emma, emma comes back, john Morse and Bridget all stay in the house. Police are stationed around and at one point they can see Lizzie enter the cellar with a kerosene lamp and a slot pail. You couldn't see exactly what she was doing, but it looked like she had been bent over a sink cleaning clothes, and people suspect it was maybe cleaning blood off the side of the clothes if she committed these murders. Now, the hardest part about all this is not only were all they, people suspect it was maybe cleaning blood off the set of the clothes if she committed these murders. Ok, now, the hardest part about all this is not only were all they staying in the house that night, so were Abby and Andrew, because their autopsies are performed, basically starting at the house because the family doctor. They're laid out on like the dining room table for a long time and they're part of this autopsy.
Speaker 2:They did remove the skulls. This, like you know, it's a well-off family, well known. Public was horrified and newspapers start to sensationalize the case right away. Okay, so now not only are the police outside, but like basically this mob of people along with the mayor trying to figure out what happened. So the the mayor and the police enter the home and basically look at Liz and go, hey, you're our only suspect, which you'd think would make her act straight. No, the next day morning she is found ripping up a dress, possibly the one she was cleaning in the cellar, and saying she was going to burn it because it was covered in paint.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I know. So here's my thing. I know it looks damning for Lizzie, but I think John and Bridget are just as culpable of this.
Speaker 1:Well, they kind of all are, I mean, and that's. I think that's why this case has been so sensationalized for years, because, number one, it was like sensationalized because a 32 year old petite female right brutally murdered two people with an axe and like how could she do that?
Speaker 1:blah, blah, blah. But then it was like there's so many other factors into this that, like you just said, nothing makes sense, but also everything could actually add up. True, and I think what we know now is that people act so different when they're faced with people dying, especially like if it was a brutal thing like this, like it's not just like a quote, unquote, normal.
Speaker 2:Everyone handles grief very differently.
Speaker 1:She could have just been like how many times have you broke something Cause you're upset?
Speaker 2:Almost every time I break something Right.
Speaker 1:So it's like. To me, her ripping up a dress could just literally be like anger, like this dress had paint on it, like fuck it, and just like destroying it because she's upset. Do you get what I mean Like? So it's like yes.
Speaker 2:I totally get what you mean and the jury had the same thought process as you. Basically, let's spend I want to spend just like a couple short minutes on the trial so we can get to the really fun parts, okay, so super long trial may testifies she claims she didn't hear witness the murders, even though she was in or just outside the home that's what she strongly states that she heard lizzie laughing from the top of the stairs and that even as she turned, she saw somebody up there.
Speaker 1:So she also said she saw, yeah, did you calculate how much five thousand dollars was?
Speaker 2:nope, okay, but it's a lot. You know what I mean just keep going.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I just had, I was just thinking so the uncle testifies next, and he stays true to his story that he wasn't home when it occurred. Like I said, though, no, ox um, emma really doesn't testify too much about the day of the murder, but she gives family statements. Lizzie has this exact quote to say I was in the barn when father was murdered. Somebody must have come in off the street and killed him. This is another damning point. For lizzie, though, when andrew returned from his walk, he couldn't get the door to work. Bridget had to let him in, so there is no way a stranger could have done this.
Speaker 2:Okay, the defense is trying to say somebody random must have come in, and they don't have any direct evidence of lizzie's wrongdoing. The prosecutor, they hang on the maid's testimony of lizzie being in the home at the top of the stairs near the guest bedroom, the strange behaviors with the cellar and right and the lack of there being forced entry because, like you, would have had to bust that door if it was somebody just coming in. The prosecutors also point out motive right, so lizzie had been upset that abby was receiving so much of her father's belongings, and obviously I think I think her and emma were a little not spoiled because they weren't getting it, but they had a taste for nicer things, right? Yeah, one of the key points of the prosecution's tactic is during the trial. The reason the skulls were taken during the autopsy is they wanted to present them as evidence In this moment where they were going to show all the hatchet blows. And Lizzie, when she saw the crushed skull, she'd faint in court.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Or no, she'd not faint. Sorry that she would freak out and admit to it. And no, instead she, she faints.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because wouldn't you?
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, but like they thought, like it would make her, just you know, confess no.
Speaker 1:I mean, I do get that thought process in a way, but what the fuck is wrong with you?
Speaker 2:right. So the fact that, like she was kind of tiny and that she didn't, that there was lack of a clear murder weapon and that everything is circumstantial, on june 20th 1893, after only 90 minutes of deliberation, she's found not guilty. What I find is really weird is she lives the rest of her life in fall river, is a total outcast and just stayed there. I don't know I I probably would have loved well, she moved to the.
Speaker 1:Didn't her and her sister move to the other property that they once bought? Yes, yep, but still in fall. Yeah, I think that you would leave I don't know why you did it if you did it, I think that you'd leave right because you're gonna get the money or whatever. But, um, really quick, five thousand dollars in today's money is worth a hundred and seventy three thousand dollars, four hundred, whatever. I'll keep going.
Speaker 2:I don't need to keep going, but yeah, got a ton of money from that's.
Speaker 1:That was what my point was. They already had plenty of money to live off of for a very long time. I I start to think something about.
Speaker 2:You know, I go back to those pigeons and especially the way they were killed with the hatchet, but you know. So the tensions, right, and everything that we have going around lizzie, that gives her motive. Um, the maid could have been pissed because, you know, abby was supposed to take care of the house. She's now being demanded to do it and she could have lied about laugh, or abby, oh sorry, lied about lizzie laughing upstairs, right to kind of put it on her the lizard laughing upstairs doesn't make sense to me.
Speaker 1:I don't know why that part fucking, that's the part that makes me kind of think it's the maid a little bit.
Speaker 2:But then. But then there's john morse. Remember, butcher by trade. He would have actually had the strength to do this. He came to talk business with andrew and they argued over money and property.
Speaker 1:Here's what I'll say the butcher by trade part. I really could give a shit about that, I could give less about, because everybody was a fucking butcher. Then you know what I mean. I don't really care about that. I know it's a big part about this case is like it's a good, like a point, and let me also just say that I don't really care if you're the most petite person in the world. If you wanted to ask somebody to death, you could fucking ask somebody to death. So I don't really know about that. Like I don't care about those two parts.
Speaker 1:I've always, I think, like when I was younger, I thought it was Lizzie, because everybody said it was Lizzie. So you just believe it. I just don't actually think it is. I don't. I don't because I think that if it was, you would take the money that you got, you'd leave, you wouldn't stay. There's no reason. There would be no reason for you to stay. But you and your sister also got what did? I just say $170,000 for selling that property back. If you really were miserable in this life, you would have just taken that money and left. Truly, it doesn't make sense for you to keep staying there. There's nothing that you're profiting. Your dad's not loving your stepmom isn't loving. Okay, so you have a maid, but you guys are miserable. It doesn't make sense to me.
Speaker 2:It seems like everyone was just living in misery, and honestly, I don't know. I'm going to keep my thoughts on what I think happened for a little bit more. Okay, so nobody is ever convicted, though.
Speaker 1:I mean, if I guess, still unsolved. Yeah, if I had to pick somebody which I really don't want to, because, like I said, I don't know why this case just makes me feel weird I would pick the brother-in-law, because how many murder cases do we hear, though, that are about business?
Speaker 2:they're about deals and money and things like that so hold on to that, okay for a little bit. Obviously still unsolved, though, and we know it's a huge pop culture thing. I mean, how many documentaries movies you know everything out there. Most of them, like we say, though, they focus on lizzie uh. There's another set of the documentaries, though, which makes this the oddity. The lizzie borden house is haunted as shit yep by the bordens and many other spirits, and, honestly, this place gives me somewhat vibes like the conjuring house, where it's like, yeah, there's the main story, but there seems to be a lot of other stuff going on. But everyone's been through here, you know, kindred spirit, so amy and adam dead files, ghost adventures. It's considered one of the most haunted locations in america. Sorry, don't go right now.
Speaker 1:It has not great owners not good owners, which I'm sorry. Let's just take a side note. Why do all of these great places have just terrible owners?
Speaker 2:I don't know. It definitely attracts some Like the conjuring. The.
Speaker 1:Villisca axe. I've always wanted to go to that house. They've turned it into an axe, throwing the basement into an actual axe throwing.
Speaker 2:I think a lot of people see how sensational the places are and just see the dollar signs.
Speaker 1:You don't even need to do that to make dollar signs in your hands.
Speaker 2:I think it's just investor minded people getting into a situation they don't know about you need to buy these places, Zachary.
Speaker 1:Yes, we do oh my God, subscribe to our Patreon so we can buy these houses.
Speaker 2:We'll let you stay there for free. That's part of being a Patreon. Okay, new tier coming soon. Stay there for free, that's part of being a Patreon. Okay, new tier coming soon. Paranormal investors All right. So some of the common things that happen, though. So there's a lot of disembodied voices and whispers. People hear murmuring voices and hushed conversations. Sometimes you hear a woman crying softly, which a lot of people think it's Abby Borden, reliving her brutal death. One of the biggest thing, though, is like these phantom sounds a lot of heavy footsteps, especially like on the staircases, the bedrooms a lot of like sounds of shuffling, just weird thuds, a lot of that seems to be focused around the guest bedroom doesn't it?
Speaker 1:um, I think they say it almost sounds like furniture is being moved.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, um, and then every now and then, people have reported like the sound of like a hatchet striking something which has a pretty, you know, unique thunk. Oh, there's also full body apparition, so a figure of a man in a suit that a lot of people think is andrew, a woman in victorian clothing that a lot of people think is abby, or also a distant borden relative. We'll get back into them, but they just seem to kind of like all these shadowy figures lurk around the house, lots of people being touched here. Um, it's like you feel cold hands on you while you're sleeping or being pushed, or like lightly scratching the back of your head.
Speaker 1:Oh, but you would love that. What do you mean? You used to beg me to do that every day at work.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but you never killed people by putting a hatchet through the back of their head.
Speaker 1:Well, you don't know.
Speaker 2:The person that is scratching is the person that killed people that's true, um, for some reason, there's a lot of children giggling around the house. No, which many investigators have collected evidence that like it's spears that are not just the Borden's, but there's a lot of other entities that seem to be attached to the land. She's a portal. Oh yeah, lots of poltergeist activities, so furniture, silverware and books all moving around without explanation. Guests have had things thrown at them, um, or they wake up and their items are like relocated or missing. Then you, you got the typical shit. You know emf, evps. You've got battery drain happening. The most common evps that we hear are help me leave, and why did you do this?
Speaker 1:yes, the why did you do this is mind-blowing to me.
Speaker 2:So I put I didn't put together a theory. I'm taking a theory that was put together by some other people. So I watched a ton of the investigations for this episode, but there was one that I really wanted to watch that I haven't seen before I didn't oh wow, but I did watch the curse of lizzie borden, which is a shock doc on discovery.
Speaker 2:Plus, uh and this features a handful of people. You might know one, dave schrader, who's done a ton of investigation. Uh, just a great human being, yes, hilarious to be around. Uh, chris fleming okay, which also huge shout out to Chris for kicking cancer's ass this year and he's recovering very well. And our buddy, sam Beltrusis, oh yeah, we've met him a handful of times. Kind of background right. So, dave, longtime investigator, he leads this excursion over multiple days into the house I'm sorry, there's also a woman named Luanne Jolly there. So he brings in Luanne Jolly. She's a local investigator and writer. Sam, who's a clairvoyant author and distant relative of the Bordens.
Speaker 2:And we have his books? Yes, we do. And then there's Chris Fleming. He's an investigator and a medium as well. So they want to come in and use all the investigative and their personal mediumship tools, because they're kind of positing evidence that something darker might be going on.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Sam has done a ton of family history and they kind of research. There's a long line of deaths in the Borden family, with family members killing other family members, like this aunt who killed her two kids right yes, and that's so weird and a lot of people seem to think that the spirit activity, that they're picking up the EVPs or the kids are actually this part of the family and Tsitsi, or whatever oh, actually this part of the family or whatever.
Speaker 2:Oh, now there's also evidence that shows that john morse the uncle, he might have been a little bit into the occult. Okay, it's not provable, but there's theories around it. Theories, right. So throughout this documentary they do. It's really, really interesting because they use a lot of the electronics, you know, evps, emfs, and they get a lot of really interesting, very Borden related but then very dark and sinister. They do spirit writing. It's really interesting to watch Dave Schrader go through a spirit writing where you can just tell he is uncomfortable with how his hand is moving. They do a whole sand.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's creepy. Yeah, when you can physically tell that's creepy. Yeah, it's a very physically tell somebody's uncomfortable, it's very oh, and multiple times throughout this.
Speaker 2:I mean sam has to leave a whole bunch. Well, one of the times he opens himself up, he's sitting on the sofa. So that was you know well, and because he's a distant relative, I feel like it does probably affect him differently they also were getting this name a lot like avlo envelope and kept feeling like he was kind of this dark spirit so don't say that name too many times here's kind of what they put together with the documentary that the physical murderer was likely lizzie but almost in a Amityville horror sense yes, a dissociation had occurred where and it had possibly occurred throughout their family.
Speaker 2:Is this like ongoing curse? That it's this dark spirit attached to them, those tensions high, keeps them all fighting until lizzie dissociates and snaps. And maybe john morse was doing some of the occult. I feel like, honestly, all of them could have been into it, because if there's a dark spirit attaching itself to them, they all could have played a different role in these murders yeah, to make it and not even really realized it right like if they were in a dissociative state.
Speaker 2:I'll go with that. So that's to me where it kind of feels like everyone had a hand in this and that's why it becomes so hard. That's why it's so weird and that's why people get such weird feelings around it. Because, yes, they were the physical reason it occurred, but not maybe intrinsically motivated to do it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't. When I watched the Sam and Colby one, I don't remember if they touched on that part, but I've definitely heard about that vaguely. Um but they did bring um Seth Borden. So if you've ever watched Seth's videos he's a distant relative of Lizzie Borden, obviously Borden. And he was getting in some weird things like the um, obviously borden, and he was getting in some weird things like it the um evps and stuff kept saying seth and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:So I think they were like you know it, it kind of, seems I, I don't know obviously right, we don't have any evidence of it being haunted before the bordens, but it does seem like it it's a family haunting it. Well, it's like family and these other dark spirits inside, I don't know. It reminds me a whole lot of it's kind of like the Amityville horror story and the conjuring pushed together a little bit.
Speaker 1:Well, because we're not saying, we can't say it's the house, because they it's not, like this house was generational.
Speaker 2:No, it's not. I don't think it's the house for sure.
Speaker 1:It's something following the family or attached to the family, the Borden.
Speaker 2:And now it's definitely attached to that property. Well, yeah, so let me ask you this If there were different owners involved, right? So like, take the owners out of the equation, would I go yeah. Okay, so we're adding it to the road trip at some point. We'll wait for it to change hands. But anyways, though, that is the story of the murders, the trials, the hauntings and the possible demonic influence that all had a hand in the Lizzie Borden axe murders.
Speaker 1:Good job. Yeah, I don't know why this one always, just because I don't think, I just don't feel like it's, I don't feel like she did it. I'm right there with you, because if she did, I agree with the way like it was a psychosis or something putting because I just, I don't know, doesn't add up to me then there's so much evidence against lizzie.
Speaker 2:But you're right, like I still just don't believe so that would also explain, like, could you imagine if you get rid of the, the darkness out of it? Right, but like, say, you drank a whole lot and you blacked out and the next day you woke up with bloody clothes around you. Like, yeah, you're going to be weird and go clean them in the basement or whatnot, like and hold yourself like nothing happened. If you didn't remember what happened and you think like there might be evidence tying you to it, I'm getting rid of it. I'm going to act weird too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, tying you to it. I'm getting rid of it. I'm gonna act weird too. Yeah, yeah, but here's the thing like when they said that, like they were watching, she like went into the basement, it's like I'm sorry, but if there's an investigation, you should have found those bloody clothes. And then, number two if you're staking out the house for the sake of the investigation, then you would go into the house and you would see what she was doing yeah, there was.
Speaker 1:There was a lot of things saying that they botch it and honestly, I could have turned this into a two or three parter to get way more into the details of of how bad the police did here yeah, no, I do know that it was definitely botched um, but I'm just saying like it, there's just way too many things that like don't make sense, like don't add up, and it's like why was, why were like? Okay, so I guess emma stayed out, but like, is that a normal thing? Did she normally came out with suitors, like, did she like? But we don't actually know where she? Was out to. We're just saying that that's.
Speaker 2:The other thing too is a lot of people assume she was with a suitor, but they don't have full evidence on that either.
Speaker 1:So that's why it's like okay, she could have very well done that. And it's like the laugh thing, like hearing her laugh, that just is so fucking stupid to me. I'm sorry, but like when do we ever just laugh out loud by ourselves?
Speaker 2:It's so fucking rare, like unless she was in a dissociative state doing this. That could very well.
Speaker 1:But I still go back to. If you look at videos of this house, I just don't feel like there's a way that you can get around this house without being heard.
Speaker 2:No, there's no way. All three of them who were there and survived it, didn't know something.
Speaker 1:And then the other thing, bridget was just sleeping on the third floor. Well, and then so this is my other. Sorry, I totally forgot about this. This has always been my other thing, because everybody got sick except for Emma because she was away from food, right, yeah, so to me my thing has always been was somebody trying to poison everybody?
Speaker 2:so that they can just they can be easily killed.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, everybody was sick. I guess you could fake being sick, but everybody ate the food.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it's like, and that's why I didn't even go into that, because like.
Speaker 1:But see, that's my thing has always been like okay. Well, if we all ate this food thinking that it's Okay, let's just say I poison the food and they're, they're all going to be sick and it's going to be so much easier for me to subdue them all and kill them all. But we've got bridget, who's fine because she's outside fucking cleaning windows yeah, well, this is days after too.
Speaker 2:They had already started to recover. Oh, so that's the other thing right, like if you were poisoning people, like maybe they, whoever was going to do it, got cold feet maybe I don't, don't know, but I've always thought something with the food was weird.
Speaker 1:And I get it. It's 18, whatever, so the food you got a lot on accident. But like I don't know there's just so many things, and like I do think that the brother-in-law like to me, that just makes sense. I mean, yes, children kill their parents for so many different reasons, but money business transaction.
Speaker 2:He had a lot of motive.
Speaker 1:That has so many reasons. Like yeah, I don't know, but if you do watch investigations you do get a lot of people that will walk out saying that they don't believe Lizzie did it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's. There's a lot of EVPs. I don't know man, this is just a hard one. Here's the deal. It's a typical oddity shop, right? We're never going to know, however. However, in two weeks, on my next episode, I promise you I'm doing one that starts with true crime.
Speaker 1:And that we will know.
Speaker 2:And that's had recent developments, so we have a nice bow to put on top of this, and I'm so excited, I am so excited. So, anyways, though, that's the lazy modern story for you, as far as we know it well, thanks, that was a good job, you're welcome what a job you're such an idiot um, okay, so we need an emoji, kara. Um, what about an axe?
Speaker 2:in the house yeah, axe in the house. I think that works if you are still listening. Always need more write-ins, call-ins of your personal stories, please. We've got some on deck, but we don't quite have enough for an episode yet. Leave us a review if you want, and you are always more than welcome to hang out with us on patreon if you so choose yes, I would actually appreciate the patreon people actually coming around to us more.
Speaker 1:I'm always or not I'm we're always giving you stuff. Come in there, chat with us, text us in our little group chatty chats. Tell me what cool things you're doing, I don't really care. You could literally tell me that you brushed your cat.
Speaker 2:Hey, you know, for some people that's really exciting, I know.
Speaker 1:Like for me, me, I'm gonna go hang out with small cat as soon as we're done. So, with that being said, I want to go hang out with a cat. Let's close up the shop with a cat, do all those things. Uh, we love you, we appreciate you. The most important thing you can do for us is to creep a real yeah balls.
Speaker 2:Goodbye. We'll be right back In the shadows At the Alicia At home with the oddballs At the Alicia. The door's always open At the Alicia.
